"The Anti-Dummy law" - Page 3

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"The Anti-Dummy law" - Page 3


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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 3rd September 2020, 12:29 AM
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Any idea how long the foreigner is typically allowed temporary ownership? Does it vary depending on locatio0n, size of parcel or is it fixed?

The anti dummy law, is designed to close all loopholes that any foreigner and or local attorney may dream up. There are ways to have effective ownership and control and use over the land but a foreigner will never get absolute ownership of land.

If you take out a long term lease, good for 25 years with an renewal for another 25 years but hold a mortgage on the land, payable on end of lease, you will have effective control. The risk is that at the end of the lease, if the land is worth much more than the mortgage, that the owner can simply pay off the mortgage and have free ownership of the land. If the mortgage is more than the land is worth, you have the leverage to get another lease. ( Personal opinion, not from any legal advice, this may also be construed as violating the anti dummy laws so be careful.)

Personally at my age a 50 year control over the land is enough, If my grandchildren want to take out an SRRV and retire here in 2070, then they can make their own arrangements.
The answer to your question, (Any idea how long the foreigner is typically allowed temporary ownership? Does it vary depending on location, size of parcel or is it fixed?) is it SHOULD be a fixed or standardized length of time but unfortunately it depends on the Judge in the particular Court Case. I had a friend in Subic, his wife died and the Court gave him 90 days to complete the land title transfer. However; My attorney said they just finished another similar case in Paranaque, Metro Manila just last year and the Judge awarded the Foreigner only 30 days...

You are 100% absolutely correct Manitoba! Good call on the lease option because this is about the best we can do as foreigners as far as land control goes...this is exactly the arrangement my attorneys suggested for nearly ALL of my business arrangements here in the Philippines. A 25-year, long term lease is typically enough to give you full and complete control of the parcel of land with an option to renew another 25 years. After that, I will not be around anyway, so beyond the 50 years does not really concern me and any one who is interested in continuing on with my endeavors can make their own arrangements after I am gone...Hahaha!!!

To get around the situation of "IF" the leased land becomes worth more than the mortgage, my attorney suggested a clause, (which I have in my leases), that says the land owner MUST give me "first" option to renew the lease before they can consider any other options and also, "IF" I do choose to renew the lease, the price cannot go up more than a certain number of predetermined percentage points agreed upon between you and the land owner at the initial signing of the lease so that the land owner cannot scam you for an arm and a leg during any possible renewal.

Sometimes, over a long period of time, land value can skyrocket and this clause will stop the owner from raising your lease payment too high...

I try to keep in mind that MOST of the land that I initially lease is vacant and not being used anyway and the owners are not making any money on their land at that time, and also the owners typically cannot afford to develop the land themselves, so that gives you a lot of leverage because all they see is the amount of money they will get from the lease and they are not necessarily looking at how long you will be in control of their land.

My better half even gave me a long term lease agreement for our private home just in case something should happen to her, then her family cannot force me off of the land if she dies and I will remain in full control until my passing...and then her family can all fight over who gets our property after we are both gone, (we have no children).
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Old 3rd September 2020, 12:45 AM
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I have a 25 + 25 year lease, an encumbered title (buyer beware) pay all the outgoings, a very detailed and articulate will in case of an untimely demise/foul play etc. but I do not own the land, only the improvements sitting on the land. While I think (fingers crossed) I am pretty safe here never say never and always remember "Filipino First".
I am fortunate enough to know and trust the Filipino I lease from, I was also married for 22 years and trusted implicitly my then wife who took me to the cleaners and that was in a western country so always count on the worse case scenario and cover your back side,,,,,, legally.

I did some figures before I elected to go this way. I could pay 40K a month rent for beachfront 3/4 bed 2/3 bath, large lot, safe area, private, no parties, no barking dogs or crowing roosters, you get the pic.
Lets say my 3 bed 2 bath home, built by a westerner, some 160M2 I could rent for only 30K per month.
360K P/A for 25 years equals 8.75 M before you take into account rent rises over that period. Property purchased by my trusted friend with funds paid to him for the 25+25 year lease, he owns the land for under 5M and I own the buildings and improvements for 1M total outlay. (foreign owner needed out)
I could go on but at the end of the day Cebu Citizen is correct, I only control.
My trusted friend and his family will be the winners in the end but at least my contribution gives me/my heirs control and a place to call home and I saved money. BTW the rates are about 4.2K P/A.

Side note, there are parcels of land/property owned by foreign nationals here that were acquired prior to either 1939 or 1935 (old timers disease) but they can only be bequeathed to direct descendants and if sold must go back to a Philippine national. Sorry for the trivia and the waffle.

Cheers, Steve.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 01:06 AM
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I have a 25 + 25 year lease, an encumbered title (buyer beware) pay all the outgoings, a very detailed and articulate will in case of an untimely demise/foul play etc. but I do not own the land, only the improvements sitting on the land. While I think (fingers crossed) I am pretty safe here never say never and always remember "Filipino First".
I am fortunate enough to know and trust the Filipino I lease from, I was also married for 22 years and trusted implicitly my then wife who took me to the cleaners and that was in a western country so always count on the worse case scenario and cover your back side,,,,,, legally.

I did some figures before I elected to go this way. I could pay 40K a month rent for beachfront 3/4 bed 2/3 bath, large lot, safe area, private, no parties, no barking dogs or crowing roosters, you get the pic.
Lets say my 3 bed 2 bath home, built by a westerner, some 160M2 I could rent for only 30K per month.
360K P/A for 25 years equals 8.75 M before you take into account rent rises over that period. Property purchased by my trusted friend with funds paid to him for the 25+25 year lease, he owns the land for under 5M and I own the buildings and improvements for 1M total outlay. (foreign owner needed out)
I could go on but at the end of the day Cebu Citizen is correct, I only control.
My trusted friend and his family will be the winners in the end but at least my contribution gives me/my heirs control and a place to call home and I saved money. BTW the rates are about 4.2K P/A.

Side note, there are parcels of land/property owned by foreign nationals here that were acquired prior to either 1939 or 1935 (old timers disease) but they can only be bequeathed to direct descendants and if sold must go back to a Philippine national. Sorry for the trivia and the waffle.

Cheers, Steve.
I have the same attitude with my business arrangements Steve...I have had my time to shine during my successful career and I have made some good money back in the US but now I am (semi) retired here in the Philippines and I am not trying to get rich...I don't need to make any money, I am only giving my Filipino Friends and Family members a chance at owning their own businesses. I am happy with just recovering my initial investment and maybe a little extra for my time but in the end my trusted friends and family members are the real winners because they will get everything as the rightful landowners after I am gone!

But that is my intention, it gives me something to do, design, set-up and implement a good business plan, lease the land, construct any necessary structures and then year after year, I gradually phase out and little by little my trusted friends gain more and more control over the business as my investment is returned and as the lease gets closer to expiration...and in the end, I lent a helping hand to not only my friends and family members but also to their children and future generations in an attempt to lift them out of the financial burdens they face in this country as well as giving me something to do and giving me purpose during my (semi) retirement...

It works at well in the end, all the people I care about are well taken care of for the rest of their lives and it turns out as a WIN, WIN situation for all involved...
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Old 3rd September 2020, 01:33 AM
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.......

To get around the situation of "IF" the leased land becomes worth more than the mortgage, my attorney suggested a clause, (which I have in my leases), that says the land owner MUST give me "first" option to renew the lease before they can consider any other options and also, "IF" I do choose to renew the lease, the price cannot go up more than a certain number of predetermined percentage points agreed upon between you and the land owner at the initial signing of the lease so that the land owner cannot scam you for an arm and a leg during any possible renewal.

.....
I would be concerned that even that sort if arrangement would be a violation of the anti dummy laws or laws that are designed to prevent foreigners from having de facto ownership of land. Remember that land ownership is limited to citizens by the constitution so foreign control is something taken seriously.


I did read on a legal site a while ago, that clauses that allow for the sale of the land in the event of a constitutional modification sometime in the future could be construed as an illegal lease. The lease would be voided, the owner gets his property back and you are hunting for your money. The courts just might rule against you if you had a clause that could force a renewal beyond the end of the 50 year lease, (75 years on investment property.)

Most of us are at a age that we will not be personally impacted by things in 50 years so if I was going to invest in long term property possession I would just stick to a standard 25+25 year lease and start telling my grandson that he will have to get his own place when he retires here in 2070.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 02:14 AM
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I would be concerned that even that sort if arrangement would be a violation of the anti dummy laws or laws that are designed to prevent foreigners from having de facto ownership of land. Remember that land ownership is limited to citizens by the constitution so foreign control is something taken seriously.


I did read on a legal site a while ago, that clauses that allow for the sale of the land in the event of a constitutional modification sometime in the future could be construed as an illegal lease. The lease would be voided, the owner gets his property back and you are hunting for your money. The courts just might rule against you if you had a clause that could force a renewal beyond the end of the 50 year lease, (75 years on investment property.)

Most of us are at a age that we will not be personally impacted by things in 50 years so if I was going to invest in long term property possession I would just stick to a standard 25+25 year lease and start telling my grandson that he will have to get his own place when he retires here in 2070.
You are exactly right...which is why I had an attorney draw up my leases according to current Philippine Law...every clause I have in my lease agreements do not go against any laws...even the Anti-Dummy Law...my attorney specifically discussed these items with me prior to them designing my land lease agreements...they are just like a typical lease agreement if we lease an apartment or a condo...nothing out of the ordinary but still covering all the important bases to protect my investment.

Even the PRA, (Philippine Retirement Authority), has a legal department to assist foreigners with making land deals and business deals because they want foreigner dollars spent here and they do not want foreigners to get ripped off getting involved in bad agreements that will scare away any future investors.

Plus rarely, do I have a lease with a complete total stranger and (not all but most of), my trusted friends and family members clearly recognize that they will gain much more from me through mutual beneficial deals and not by stealing something from me or scamming me out of a lease agreement if they get greedy. Anyone can rip you off once...if that is their intent.

You can catch mores fly's with honey than you can with vinegar!

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Old 3rd September 2020, 02:16 AM
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I hear you clearly. I have also tried to help my good friend (better half) and his/my family for years to come up with a stable and profitable ideas to help,,,,, to date nada. Their ideas are expensive or risky and they only see how much they can make and no consideration for the capitol outlay and recouping, running costs etc.
When pointed out that their projected 30 to sometimes 50% return annually is not such and there will in fact only be a 5 to 12% return after scrutiny and number crunching they are not prepared to put in the hard yards to make it better/work.
My good friend has come to me 3 times over the last 8 or 9 years with property deals (many) and while on the surface appear good with a little and at times a lot of scratching the truth comes out. No there is no access, only through my sisters house but it's a good house and land, clear title? No squatters land. That property 6 years ago was a mere 500K, now it's 200K and no one will touch it because it is land locked and and no one will sell access, even the owners of the vacant block behind,,,,,, yep you guessed it they are waiting for the price to hit 100K then will be snapped up. A 2 storey 2 bed 1 bath home on 400 M2. I does need renovating and perhaps 150 to 170 K would sort it. Another one, 150K, looks good, ask the questions, turns out the seller is a co owner and the other owner that lives in another country won't sell, do your homework guys.
Tricycles, another one that bit the dust, mini vans yet another. Money lending went out the window day one. I have suggested bigger fish, a Gas station, employ the whole family but I have never seen one on the market and my good friend is scared of the money involved and having trusted employees,,,,,, He said that not me. A food franchise and the list goes on.
OMO but when Filipinos are left to their own devices it works but if you bring and manage foreign investment at a local level it's too hard and when expected gratuities from any such such venture are/won't be forthcoming then they don't want to put in the hard yards to make it work. Foreigner syndrome, high expectations, lazy? Who cares, opportunity knocks all day long, a family friend of mine said to me 20+ years ago "your lucky to have all this and achieve what you have" I said to him "no luck involved, I worked my *rse off and made good decisions"
I'm not wealthy but comfortable and the last thing I would consider is going outside the law (anti dummy or all others) and risk 46 years of grafting to wind up back in Oz on an AU 21K pension that won't pay the rent. Be wise, read and learn. LOL, (yet another prattle/waffle)

OMO the laws here and may I say in many countries are there to protect the people and countries future, pity my home country doesn't adopt the same attitude and laws. Filipino first and always.

Cheers, Steve.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 02:47 AM
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We can all hypothesise different scenarios against/to relevant countries legally while covering our derrieres but as happens/has happened, civil war can change/bankrupt all with good intentions and those without and move forward we do, in the interim the anti dummy laws here are clear and explicit and aimed at those looking to take advantage of Filipino citizens and their economy and civil rights.
Hey I see it happening in Australia selling land and resources to foreign monopolies, my government don't have the balls to stand up and say NO! The Australian people are mostly kept in the dark and bend over because they generally have a good life........ Here it is different. Abide we do.

OMO.

Cheers, Steve.

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Old 3rd September 2020, 03:10 AM
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I hear you clearly. I have also tried to help my good friend (better half) and his/my family for years to come up with a stable and profitable ideas to help,,,,, to date nada. Their ideas are expensive or risky and they only see how much they can make and no consideration for the capitol outlay and recouping, running costs etc.
When pointed out that their projected 30 to sometimes 50% return annually is not such and there will in fact only be a 5 to 12% return after scrutiny and number crunching they are not prepared to put in the hard yards to make it better/work.
My good friend has come to me 3 times over the last 8 or 9 years with property deals (many) and while on the surface appear good with a little and at times a lot of scratching the truth comes out. No there is no access, only through my sisters house but it's a good house and land, clear title? No squatters land. That property 6 years ago was a mere 500K, now it's 200K and no one will touch it because it is land locked and and no one will sell access, even the owners of the vacant block behind,,,,,, yep you guessed it they are waiting for the price to hit 100K then will be snapped up. A 2 storey 2 bed 1 bath home on 400 M2. I does need renovating and perhaps 150 to 170 K would sort it. Another one, 150K, looks good, ask the questions, turns out the seller is a co owner and the other owner that lives in another country won't sell, do your homework guys.
Tricycles, another one that bit the dust, mini vans yet another. Money lending went out the window day one. I have suggested bigger fish, a Gas station, employ the whole family but I have never seen one on the market and my good friend is scared of the money involved and having trusted employees,,,,,, He said that not me. A food franchise and the list goes on.
OMO but when Filipinos are left to their own devices it works but if you bring and manage foreign investment at a local level it's too hard and when expected gratuities from any such such venture are/won't be forthcoming then they don't want to put in the hard yards to make it work. Foreigner syndrome, high expectations, lazy? Who cares, opportunity knocks all day long, a family friend of mine said to me 20+ years ago "your lucky to have all this and achieve what you have" I said to him "no luck involved, I worked my *rse off and made good decisions"
I'm not wealthy but comfortable and the last thing I would consider is going outside the law (anti dummy or all others) and risk 46 years of grafting to wind up back in Oz on an AU 21K pension that won't pay the rent. Be wise, read and learn. LOL, (yet another prattle/waffle)

OMO the laws here and may I say in many countries are there to protect the people and countries future, pity my home country doesn't adopt the same attitude and laws. Filipino first and always.

Cheers, Steve.
Yeah...it is very difficult to get a "local" zebra to change their stripes, so to speak!

I have many friends ask me to help them start a business and I ask, "what type of business are you considering?" and they typically say an Okay-Okay store or a Sari-Sari store...BOTH of which are totally useless as far as recovering any type of investment because they simply DO NOT generate enough income even "IF" they are successful, the income is still extremely low! I try to sell them on a bigger idea and many are not interested in the "sweat equity" they need to make a successful business work!

The one area where I have been the MOST successful with helping trusted friends and family members with new businesses is the tourism/entertainment/recreational industry! So many countless and great opportunities and many of them require very very little initial investment and absolutely huge returns very quickly...and hiring young workers who like that sort of outdoor adventure stuff or recreational activities is easy and cheap. The work is not hard and the businesses are extremely easy to manage...especially when they see the profits rolling in...

Such as one family member, I helped start a tourist eco park business involving zip lines. They had the land and I put up the money to purchase and install several high quality zip lines and in less than 3 months I had all my initial investment back and our agreement was that I would get a very small percentage of the profits for the first five years, in exchange for helping them start the business...which they faithfully pay on time for the past three years...less than 2 more years and the business and all their profits is all theirs.

They make so much money, they are building a new house...and bought a their very first car.

I put up just over 15k and they are making so much money hand over fist...even with COVID19 they are doing very well because socially distancing is not an issue and face masks and face shields are not required in outdoor physical activities and disinfecting everything is easy because the visitors don't touch very many items in an outdoor eco park! So, even the virus has not affected the business very much!

I have received my initial investment ten times over...and I still have 2 more years of my share of the profits.

The zip line numbers were down a little lower from a small lack of foreigner tourists during the lockdown but not much because most of their customers are locals tired of being cooped up in quarantine...everyone is itching to get outside and do something...and the Provincial Government recently opened up the beaches and eco parks here as well as other outdoor activities, bike riding, paddle boards, snorkeling, scuba diving, etc. and tourists are already starting to arrive again...

There are literally hundreds of tourist or entertainment/recreational type businesses that have very low investment costs and extremely high returns on investment...and all you needs is a place to start the business...such as a piece of land, which most of my friends and family members have...the just don't have the money to develop anything themselves nor do they have the vision to come with imaginative ideas.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 03:57 AM
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I think we are on the same page and all others go to the back.

Cheers, Steve.

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Old 3rd September 2020, 07:31 AM
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My better half even gave me a long term lease agreement for our private home just in case something should happen to her, then her family cannot force me off of the land if she dies and I will remain in full control until my passing...and then her family can all fight over who gets our property after we are both gone, (we have no children).
Depending on your relationship with your better half I would question the the legality of this lease and whether it contravenes the family code.

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