Grève du 5 décembre - Page 3

Go Back   Expat Forum For People Moving Overseas And Living Abroad > Europe > France Expat Forum for Expats Living in France > Le Bistro

Le Bistro This new forum is for socialising, networking and off topic discussions for all members either living in or moving to France.

Like Tree9Likes

Grève du 5 décembre - Page 3


Reply
 
Subscribe to this Thread Thread Tools
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 4th December 2019, 07:40 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 66
Rep Power: 0
BarbTF is on a distinguished road
29 likes received
31 likes given

Default

If the situation in France is, or becomes, anything like the situation in the US, I think Smeg is right that people should be looking to their own retirement savings. Lots of companies and governmental entities here have decided they can't afford to pay the retirement payments they agreed to, and have left retirees either without their promised pensions or with much lower ones.

Not to mention that the age you must attain to get full Social Security has risen.

The problem is that a) governments did not collect enough in taxes to fund their retirement promises, and b) laws did not require companies to properly fund their retirement promises and c) lots of people have a difficult time saving the money because they aren't making enough to live on AND save for retirement (or at least are convinced that's the case--they spend like their parents did but their parents had pensions and they do not. And modern media makes us all VERY aware of how the very rich live ,whereas in the past we may not have been so aware, which causes rising costs for "keeping up with the Joneses.")

And then in the bigger picture we have increasing concentration of wealth, as well as technology making more jobs obsolete every year, while the working-age population increases. What are we going to to with all the excess working-age people--let them starve to death? Make them work at extremely low-wage jobs so they essentially become slaves to the few at the top?

I honestly don't know what the solution is. I'm hoping we can all scrape along until I die in my late 90s (hey, might as well be optimistic!), because I really don't want to spend my later years in the midst of war or societal upheaval. But unless we all asphyxiate due to the pollution we seem unable to stop, we're going to have to solve those issues somehow.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 4th December 2019, 09:01 PM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pau
Posts: 14,848
Rep Power: 4598
EverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond repute
5619 likes received
9335 likes given

Users Flag! Originally from australia. Users Flag! Expat in france.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbTF View Post
If the situation in France is, or becomes, anything like the situation in the US, I think Smeg is right that people should be looking to their own retirement savings. Lots of companies and governmental entities here have decided they can't afford to pay the retirement payments they agreed to, and have left retirees either without their promised pensions or with much lower ones.

Not to mention that the age you must attain to get full Social Security has risen.

The problem is that a) governments did not collect enough in taxes to fund their retirement promises, and b) laws did not require companies to properly fund their retirement promises and c) lots of people have a difficult time saving the money because they aren't making enough to live on AND save for retirement (or at least are convinced that's the case--they spend like their parents did but their parents had pensions and they do not. And modern media makes us all VERY aware of how the very rich live ,whereas in the past we may not have been so aware, which causes rising costs for "keeping up with the Joneses.")

And then in the bigger picture we have increasing concentration of wealth, as well as technology making more jobs obsolete every year, while the working-age population increases. What are we going to to with all the excess working-age people--let them starve to death? Make them work at extremely low-wage jobs so they essentially become slaves to the few at the top?

I honestly don't know what the solution is. I'm hoping we can all scrape along until I die in my late 90s (hey, might as well be optimistic!), because I really don't want to spend my later years in the midst of war or societal upheaval. But unless we all asphyxiate due to the pollution we seem unable to stop, we're going to have to solve those issues somehow.
I don't believe you can compare France and the US for many reasons. How much do you actually know about the French pensions systems, contributions and the like?

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 4th December 2019, 09:20 PM
Bevdeforges's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: deepest, darkest Essonne
Posts: 46,411
Rep Power: 23287
Bevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond repute
9750 likes received
1312 likes given

Users Flag! Originally from usa. Users Flag! Expat in france.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EverHopeful View Post
I don't believe you can compare France and the US for many reasons. How much do you actually know about the French pensions systems, contributions and the like?
I was going to say much the same thing. The US system is set up completely differently - and in some ways, each system could take a few pointers from the other one.

In the US, the "social security" system (which is, basically, a pension system) was never designed to be one's primary means of support in retirement. The idea was supposed to be that SS was a base amount, as sort of a "safety net", to which one would add a traditional defined benefit pension from one's employer (assuming one had only one employer during one's career) and personal savings. Most employers, though, have now switched to individual retirement accounts and/or 401Ks, which are more personal savings than pension plan - which throws the whole "three legged stool" model out the window. (Not to mention the possibility that one's "pension savings" can be decimated in a market downturn like we had in 2009.)

France (and most of Europe) have national pension plans, which have gradually been supplemented with various sorts of savings and/or investment plans - but those are optional and marketed as tax advantaged investments. Also, for US expats at least, most forms of retirement savings plans outside the US are heavily penalized by the US tax code.

EH is right - it's virtually impossible to compare the US system with any sort of European government pension program, whether in function or in intent.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 4th December 2019, 09:59 PM
Steve Foley's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Blagnac
Posts: 856
Rep Power: 0
Steve Foley is on a distinguished road
210 likes received
247 likes given

Users Flag! Originally from scotland. Users Flag! Expat in france.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevdeforges View Post
Can you explain just what are the grievances of the strikers tomorrow? Is it mainly that they don't want any changes to their pensions? Or are their other issues? Or are there specific aspects of the the government's proposals that they're all upset about?

Or for that matter, is it just the fact that the government's proposals are still pretty vague and incoherent?
I feel that it is a bit of all those points. Also the French Working Class of which I am one has got wise to Macron and Phillipe who are NOT Centrist but on the Economic Right and no friend to them. Macron is Le Tony Blair.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 4th December 2019, 10:38 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 66
Rep Power: 0
BarbTF is on a distinguished road
29 likes received
31 likes given

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bevdeforges View Post
I was going to say much the same thing. The US system is set up completely differently - and in some ways, each system could take a few pointers from the other one.

In the US, the "social security" system (which is, basically, a pension system) was never designed to be one's primary means of support in retirement. The idea was supposed to be that SS was a base amount, as sort of a "safety net", to which one would add a traditional defined benefit pension from one's employer (assuming one had only one employer during one's career) and personal savings. Most employers, though, have now switched to individual retirement accounts and/or 401Ks, which are more personal savings than pension plan - which throws the whole "three legged stool" model out the window. (Not to mention the possibility that one's "pension savings" can be decimated in a market downturn like we had in 2009.)

France (and most of Europe) have national pension plans, which have gradually been supplemented with various sorts of savings and/or investment plans - but those are optional and marketed as tax advantaged investments. Also, for US expats at least, most forms of retirement savings plans outside the US are heavily penalized by the US tax code.

EH is right - it's virtually impossible to compare the US system with any sort of European government pension program, whether in function or in intent.
I admit to not understanding the French system other than in broad terms, but I still think that in broad terms my post was correct. I know the French have paid into their retirement system through taxes and expect to receive most if not all of their retirement income from the government system, and that the government now thinks some things have to be revised re the payouts/timing, and people are not happy about that and thus the strike is happening.

I still say if i were French, at this point I would be doing whatever I could to save money myself for my retirement because I wouldn't have as much faith in the government supporting me in my old age as I used to.

And I still think demographic changes, concentration of wealth at the top, and technological changes and their effects on the work force are being experienced in France and every other developed country. And are what is driving social unrest and upheaval including the impending strike in France.

But you can all feel free to ignore my opinions if you'd like. They are of course just opinions.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 4th December 2019, 11:05 PM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pau
Posts: 14,848
Rep Power: 4598
EverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond reputeEverHopeful has a reputation beyond repute
5619 likes received
9335 likes given

Users Flag! Originally from australia. Users Flag! Expat in france.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbTF View Post
I admit to not understanding the French system other than in broad terms, but I still think that in broad terms my post was correct. I know the French have paid into their retirement system through taxes and expect to receive most if not all of their retirement income from the government system, and that the government now thinks some things have to be revised re the payouts/timing, and people are not happy about that and thus the strike is happening.

I still say if i were French, at this point I would be doing whatever I could to save money myself for my retirement because I wouldn't have as much faith in the government supporting me in my old age as I used to.

And I still think demographic changes, concentration of wealth at the top, and technological changes and their effects on the work force are being experienced in France and every other developed country. And are what is driving social unrest and upheaval including the impending strike in France.

But you can all feel free to ignore my opinions if you'd like. They are of course just opinions.

The French don't pay into the retirement system through tax, they pay direct contributions. It is a system that was developed after WW2 by the French communist party (nothing to do with reds and beds and the Russians are coming BTW. Some special regimes have been developed over time to enable the government to recruit people on lower rates of pay than would have otherwise been considered appropriate, with an effectively contractual promise that this would be compensated via special retirement and pension provisions (some of which also required the employees to make higher pension contributions) - these were originally all public sector staff, but other special regimes outside the public sector have sprung up over time. The current government proposals, which are extremely unclear to say the least (to the extent that even the most senior Ministers seems to have different understanding of what is actually proposed) will, however, affect the vast majority of French workers across all sectors, with most 'losing out' in some way or other.

But the really big difference in France is cultural, the concept of solidarity, the willingness to strike (with consequent loss of pay), not just for oneself, but for others, and the notion that massive joint mobilisation achieves more than various sectors negotiating in isolation.

Tomorrow's strike (the impacts of which are being felt tonight for obvious reasons), which could well be extended, currently has 70% public support.

This is not a culture where people just look out for themselves, at least not yet.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 5th December 2019, 07:27 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Body in Wales, spirit in Normandy
Posts: 3,059
Rep Power: 271
EuroTrash has a spectacular aura aboutEuroTrash has a spectacular aura aboutEuroTrash has a spectacular aura about
1580 likes received
558 likes given

Users Flag! Originally from wales. Users Flag! Expat in wales.
Default

I'm keeping my lip buttoned on this because I'm out of touch.
But what I can say is that Smeg would be awful disappointed if he lived in small town France. The school up the road from me is open as usual - car park full of teachers' cars, queues of parents dropping their little darlings off. Traffic is buzzing this way and that going about its business. If you didn't watch the news or read the papers you wouldn't know the whole of France is plunged into chaos.
Peasant likes this.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 5th December 2019, 08:25 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: France
Posts: 3,859
Rep Power: 0
Smeg is on a distinguished road
1131 likes received
252 likes given

Users Flag! Originally from uk. Users Flag! Expat in france.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eurotrash View Post
i'm keeping my lip buttoned on this because i'm out of touch.
But what i can say is that smeg would be awful disappointed if he lived in small town france. The school up the road from me is open as usual - car park full of teachers' cars, queues of parents dropping their little darlings off. Traffic is buzzing this way and that going about its business. If you didn't watch the news or read the papers you wouldn't know the whole of france is plunged into chaos.
bfm...

Quote:
il y a 2 heures et 9 minutes


à l'école, plus d'un enseignant sur deux en grève
les transports ne sont pas le seul secteur impacté par la mobilisation contre la réforme des retraites. Dans les écoles, le taux de grève s'élève à 55%, a annoncé mercredi le ministre de l'éducation nationale et de la jeunesse.

Sur l'ensemble du territoire, il devrait y avoir de grandes variations puisque la mobilisation sera comprise "entre 35%" dans certaines régions et "78% à paris", a indiqué jean-michel blanquer, lors d'une conférence de presse.


Last edited by Bevdeforges; 5th December 2019 at 10:43 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 5th December 2019, 08:26 AM
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: France
Posts: 3,859
Rep Power: 0
Smeg is on a distinguished road
1131 likes received
252 likes given

Users Flag! Originally from uk. Users Flag! Expat in france.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EverHopeful View Post
You don't have a real job, though.
Can you explain to me what a 'real' job is please


A very French attitude that, which is why France is in such a mess.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 5th December 2019, 09:09 AM
Bevdeforges's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: deepest, darkest Essonne
Posts: 46,411
Rep Power: 23287
Bevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond reputeBevdeforges has a reputation beyond repute
9750 likes received
1312 likes given

Users Flag! Originally from usa. Users Flag! Expat in france.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbTF View Post
I admit to not understanding the French system other than in broad terms, but I still think that in broad terms my post was correct.
I don't think anyone is saying that your post is "wrong." It's just that there is a very different view of what amounts to the same social phenomena here.

Personally, I agree that the French need to do more to assure their own security in retirement - and also that the government needs to create new incentives to encourage people to do so with some level of protection. However, somehow I also feel that there is something very, very wrong with the US approach - that just assumes that individuals can and should be able to wheel and deal in the stock market on their own to provide for their own retirements (and to be able to overcome recessions and financial crises that hit just as they are considering retirement).

You're definitely right in that both the US and France are facing many of the same "societal" strains - city vs. country, income inequality, deeply entrenched attitudes, the ever increasing isolation of individuals, etc. But these issues do tend to manifest themselves differently between cultures. And governments everywhere seem these days to consider problems and issues in isolation without regard to how a slap dash solution to one problem makes other issues and problems worse.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Expat Forum For People Moving Overseas And Living Abroad forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Location
Where you live
Expat From Country
Please select the country you originate from. This will appear as a flag when you make posts on the site.
Expat To Country
Please select the country you have either moved to or want to relocate to. This will be presented on the site when you make posts.

Log-in


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


FORUM PARTNERS

ExpatForum.com is owned and operated by VerticalScope Inc.

Retiring Overseas Guides | Moving Overseas Guides | Cost of Living | Health Care Guides


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.