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Bevdeforges 25th January 2020 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EverHopeful (Post 15031052)
Have to agree with that, though it would requite significant change.

As much as I grouse about how resistant to change the French can be, the Americans seem firmly wedded to many of their worst ideas, too, especially in the political arena. I still find the open primary system for choosing a political party's candidate to be an insane approach to the problem.

ChezCheese:) 25th January 2020 11:19 PM

Problem with caucuses is that only sociable people show up. Primaries allow shy people to have a voice.

BarbTF 26th January 2020 03:24 AM

I lived in Iowa for 13 years and I can therefore knowledgeably say that the other problem with Iowa's caucuses is that they happen in the middle of the bleepin' winter when the weather can be ridiculously bad--snow, ice, wind, windchill of 30 below or so...

Even really sociable people don't want to leave their houses when it's like that outside. :)

Bevdeforges 26th January 2020 06:50 AM

My objection to open primaries is pretty much what happened back in 2016. By allowing "anyone" to vote in the primaries and then actually taking on the winner of the primaries as candidate, the parties leave themselves open to all sorts of manipulation. And, they just manage to "justify" their lack of a stance on any issue because they have to wait to see who their nominee is.

We saw a really sad example of this here in France (now that the main parties have gone over to a "primary" system to choose their candidates) when Holland was selected in the primary to be the candidate. And then again when the Socialists went for whoever it was last time around and who has now faded from view and pretty much allowed the party to wither away to nothing.

It used to be a joke with the "open" primary systems back in the US that people would claim they were going to change parties in order to vote in the "other" primary for the worst candidate with no chance of winning the election in order to assure a win for their own party. I mentioned this one time here in France when this primary system was new and people were "shocked" that anyone would do that. Hm, wonder how many folks figured it out on their own and sabotaged the primary.

No, the parties should have to come up with a platform first and then find a candidate who believes in the principles of the party platform. Or else you get this "every person for his- or herself" thing going on.

ChezCheese:) 2nd February 2020 04:45 PM

Well, folks, there is now precedence: if you have a majority in the Senate, you can acquit or convict without evidence or witnesses. Welcome to Kangaroo House. Unfortunately, Democrats will never have so few vertebrae that they will let it happen when they are in power. Only Republicans are craven enough to sell out like that. I'd best go plant some trees. People are hopeless.

Peasant 3rd February 2020 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezCheese:) (Post 15031094)
Problem with caucuses is that only sociable people show up. Primaries allow shy people to have a voice.

Sociable people who are not deaf, blind or with other disabilities, who have a car or other form of transportation and who can find/afford a baby-sitter for the evening.

The Iowa caucuses are idiotic, I've seen them in action first hand.

Bevdeforges 3rd February 2020 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peasant (Post 15036148)
The Iowa caucuses are idiotic, I've seen them in action first hand.

So are open primaries, IMO. In those states where you don't have to swear allegiance to the party to vote in the primaries, you can always vote in the "other" primary to try to get the worst of the contenders nominated. Plus, you then get the party following the dictates of the candidate rather than a candidate pledged to the party platform. (And we all know how that one turned out.)

And just look at what happened in the party primaries here in France. Candidates nominated by anyone who could come up with the 2 fee to vote and then who didn't get anywhere near enough votes.

BarbTF 3rd February 2020 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peasant (Post 15036148)
Sociable people who are not deaf, blind or with other disabilities, who have a car or other form of transportation and who can find/afford a baby-sitter for the evening.

The Iowa caucuses are idiotic, I've seen them in action first hand.

I understand based on news reports that New Hampshire (which prides itself on having the "first primary") and therefore other portions of the political establishment in both parties, object to many changes at all in the caucuses because they don't want them to become more primary-like.

And since Iowa wants to continue to be first to hold them, they are very limited in what changes they can make. Which is why they decided not to hold "virtual caucuses" after a lot of discussion about doing that this year for those who have trouble attending the regular ones.

As someone who moved away from Iowa 7 years ago but has a cell phone with an Iowa number I would be very grateful if Iowa stopped being first--it is crazy how many calls I get during the months before the caucuses. I don't answer any calls now from Iowa area codes if I don't recognize the number--they are all political calls. I used to answer, worried that I'd miss a call from a customer--but now I just figure a customer will email me or leave a voicemail if I don't answer.


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