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Isla Verde 14th January 2016 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howler (Post 9152178)
However, Spain - the "originator" of the language - has the "academia" to maintain control over what it deems pure Spanish. My professors didn't like my idea that Mexico should create its own academic to compete with Spain's... :brick:
(Damned brick, AGAIN!)

These days I don't see the Real Academia as having control over what is deemed "correct" Spanish. In fact, I use their online dictionary regularly, and it covers the Spanish language as spoken (and written) in both the mother country and the rest of the Spanish-speaking world.

Though the Spanish language has changed and grown over the many centuries since large areas of the Americas were colonized by Spain, the language did originate there. I don't see why you have a problem with this obvious fact.

ojosazules11 14th January 2016 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TundraGreen (Post 9142370)
For the people who haven't encountered it yet, "Mande?" is a way of asking someone to repeat something you didn't hear or understand.

It also is used as a response if someone calls to you, as in requesting you to do something. If my husband calls my name, I will often respond "Mande" or "Que manda" - basically indicating I'm "at his orders". Since my first Spanish was Guatemalan Spanish, and the use of "Mande" is even more usual there than in Mexico, it seems very natural to me and I've never felt servile using it, although I understand the historical colonial servant/master context that many object to. In general, I've found the Guatemalan way of speaking to be quite flowery and courteous (some might say overly courteous). Lots of "para servirle" and "a sus órdenes". Also lots of indirect speech. Instead of "I want you to do this" it's more like "This needs to be done" (hoping the person will understand that I want THEM to do it).

When we had a young man from Colombia living with us for a year, he started picking up on our use of "mande". When he went back to his parents, his father had the same reaction as the Argentines and Gary. In Colombia a common way to respectfully respond when someone calls your name (at least if it is a younger person responding to an older person) is "¿Señora?" I found it quite funny that our young guest would use "Señora" even when responding to my husband. I asked why "Señora" instead of "Señor" and he said it was just reflexive to respond with "Señora" regardless of gender.

ojosazules11 14th January 2016 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isla Verde (Post 9148490)
I think it's a riot if Argentinians think they speak "better" Spanish than Mexicans. To me the language spoken in Argentina has a very Italian cadence, plus the use of "vos" and its odd verb forms have no connection to the way the language is spoken in Spain.

I quite like the Argentine accent, with the soft "zzhh" sound for "y" and "ll". Its cadence is also very musical. And of course I'm used to the "vos" form, as it is commonly used in Central America. I'm still more likely to say "¡Mirá!" than "Mira" (the vos vs. tu form of "Look!"). Or as an interjection, "¡Ay, vos!"

As to why the Argentinians would think they speak "better" Spanish than Mexicans, I guess it's because they are ... well, Argentinians. Here's a joke I've heard told by more than one Argentine friend: "A very lucrative business proposition is to buy an Argentine for what he is worth, and then sell him for what he THINKS he is worth."

Isla Verde 14th January 2016 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ojosazules11 (Post 9152418)
I quite like the Argentine accent, with the soft "zzhh" sound for "y" and "ll". Its cadence is also very musical. And of course I'm used to the "vos" form, as it is commonly used in Central America. I'm still more likely to say "¡Mirá!" than "Mira" (the vos vs. tu form of "Look!"). Or as an interjection, "¡Ay, vos!"

As to why the Argentinians would think they speak "better" Spanish than Mexicans, I guess it's because they are ... well, Argentinians. Here's a joke I've heard told by more than one Argentine friend: "A very lucrative business proposition is to buy an Argentine for what he is worth, and then sell him for what he THINKS he is worth."

The last couple of years, I've become a big fan of the marcelous Mafalda comics and reading them has made the "vos" verb forms seems less odd to me than they had before. They are related to the "vosotros" verb forms still used all over in Spain, but instead of being a plural familiar form of "you", they've come to substitute for some of the singular "tú" forms. I really should look into how this came about.

I love your anecdote about the Argentinian ego!

GARYJ65 14th January 2016 03:27 PM

Even the Pope, an Argentinian, told a joke last year about that

He asked if the interviewer knew how would an Argentinian commit suicide... By climbing to the top of their egos and jumping down!

Many people consider themselves Europeans, Italians, Spaniards, etc. In the US too, they would think of themselves as Irish and celebrate St Patrick's day and wear green... Italians think they are still Italians, even though they cannot speak the language and have never been to Italy... Polish , Japanese, etc. It helps people to keep roots from where we came from

ojosazules11 14th January 2016 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GARYJ65 (Post 9157810)
Even the Pope, an Argentinian, told a joke last year about that

He asked if the interviewer knew how would an Argentinian commit suicide... By climbing to the top of their egos and jumping down!

Many people consider themselves Europeans, Italians, Spaniards, etc. In the US too, they would think of themselves as Irish and celebrate St Patrick's day and wear green... Italians think they are still Italians, even though they cannot speak the language and have never been to Italy... Polish , Japanese, etc. It helps people to keep roots from where we came from

I hadn't heard that joke - love it!

I think it's healthy when people with big egos at least recognize that fact! :)

Howler 14th January 2016 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isla Verde (Post 9152738)
The last couple of years, I've become a big fan of the marcelous Mafalda comics and reading them has made the "vos" verb forms seems less odd to me than they had before. They are related to the "vosotros" verb forms still used all over in Spain, but instead of being a plural familiar form of "you", they've come to substitute for some of the singular "tú" forms. I really should look into how this came about.

I got addicted to Mafalda comics in the form of little books back when I was first in Mexico. I laughed out loud more, sometimes, than when I read "Peanuts" back in the states. I never saw it in English, probably because it would be difficult to translate some of their best gags due to how "Latino"-centric the humor was... it wouldn't make sense to a Gringo in English, especially if they were unfamiliar with Spanish or life in Latin America. It was a great look at the world & politics of the time from a different perspective.

I understand it ceased back in the early 70s, maybe because of the turmoil in Argentina at the time. Even though it was an Argentine product, Mafalda was well-loved in Mexico, too! Oh yes, it also helped me to understand how they used "vos" & conjugated their verbs differently there than how I was learning Spanish in Mexico.

Howler 14th January 2016 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GARYJ65 (Post 9157810)
Many people consider themselves Europeans, Italians, Spaniards, etc. In the US too, they would think of themselves as Irish and celebrate St Patrick's day and wear green... Italians think they are still Italians, even though they cannot speak the language and have never been to Italy... Polish , Japanese, etc. It helps people to keep roots from where we came from

These Argentinians seemed offended to be considered Latino even in the midst of other hispanics... and showed a disdain (akin to racism) for the Mexicans around them - even in church! Not all of them were so extreme, and others appeared to soften after being here awhile; but there were those that held the "hard line" throughout the time that I knew them. I also saw the same kind of "disdain" or prejudice of lighter skinned Central Americans against their more indigenous or dark-skinned countrymen in Honduras, El Salvador & Guatemala.

Isla Verde 14th January 2016 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GARYJ65 (Post 9157810)

Many people consider themselves Europeans, Italians, Spaniards, etc. In the US too, they would think of themselves as Irish and celebrate St Patrick's day and wear green... Italians think they are still Italians, even though they cannot speak the language and have never been to Italy... Polish , Japanese, etc. It helps people to keep roots from where we came from

There's a difference between Argentinians who deny being Latin Americans and declare themselves to be Europeans and citizens of the US who think of themselves as Irish-Americans or Italian-Americans and so on.

GARYJ65 16th January 2016 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isla Verde (Post 9158610)
There's a difference between Argentinians who deny being Latin Americans and declare themselves to be Europeans and citizens of the US who think of themselves as Irish-Americans or Italian-Americans and so on.

What would that difference be?

Americans do not deny being Americans, but they defend their European roots as if they just came down from the Mayflower


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