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Meritorious-MasoMenos 13th January 2016 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GARYJ65 (Post 9142818)
Diga?
Perdone?
Cómo?

Mande literally is asking for someone to order you to do something

Some of us are just not up to that

Thank you. That's very clear.

Isla Verde, I don't agree with what the Argentine said, but he's a proud wordsmith of Spanish, his version anyway, and Gary's explanation does provide background for his "barbaric" concept, something no educated Argentine would say.

Howler 13th January 2016 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meritorious-MasoMenos (Post 9146770)
Thank you. That's very clear.

Isla Verde, I don't agree with what the Argentine said, but he's a proud wordsmith of Spanish, his version anyway, and Gary's explanation does provide background for his "barbaric" concept, something no educated Argentine would say.

On several occassion when I found myself in groups of various Latin American military personnel, they almost always found their way into an argument on where Spanish was spoken better or more correctly outside of Spain. Of course the Argentines & Chilenos were "strong" advocates for their ways of speaking Spanish, with the Colombianos following up in a close second.

My reply was to remind the group that Spanish in this hemisphere was first spoken in Mexico - "...y de allá se fue pa' abajo, todo, hasta llegar a Argentina al sur."

It was a great ice-breaker and a way to stick my claim in there on behalf of good ol' Mexico!

Meritorious-MasoMenos 13th January 2016 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Howler (Post 9148266)
On several occassion when I found myself in groups of various Latin American military personnel, they almost always found their way into an argument on where Spanish was spoken better or more correctly outside of Spain. Of course the Argentines & Chilenos were "strong" advocates for their ways of speaking Spanish, with the Colombianos following up in a close second.

My reply was to remind the group that Spanish in this hemisphere was first spoken in Mexico - "...y de allá se fue pa' abajo, todo, hasta llegar a Argentina al sur."

It was a great ice-breaker and a way to stick my claim in there on behalf of good ol' Mexico!

So right, and I'm pretty sure that Mexico is the largest speaking Spanish country in the world, and "correct" language is what most people speak, not what academicians think should be spoken. But as you said and I said, it's not good to be between a Mexican and an Argentine/Chilean "discussing" language.

Isla Verde 13th January 2016 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meritorious-MasoMenos (Post 9148442)
So right, and I'm pretty sure that Mexico is the largest speaking Spanish country in the world, and "correct" language is what most people speak, not what academicians think should be spoken. But as you said and I said, it's not good to be between a Mexican and an Argentine/Chilean "discussing" language.

I think it's a riot if Argentinians think they speak "better" Spanish than Mexicans. To me the language spoken in Argentina has a very Italian cadence, plus the use of "vos" and its odd verb forms have no connection to the way the language is spoken in Spain.

GARYJ65 13th January 2016 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isla Verde (Post 9148490)
I think it's a riot if Argentinians think they speak "better" Spanish than Mexicans. To me the language spoken in Argentina has a very Italian cadence, plus the use of "vos" and its odd verb forms have no connection to the way the language is spoken in Spain.

That applies to Argentina and Uruguay, almost the same thing

Isla Verde 13th January 2016 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GARYJ65 (Post 9148754)
That applies to Argentina and Uruguay, almost the same thing

Agreed!

Howler 13th January 2016 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meritorious-MasoMenos (Post 9148442)
So right, and I'm pretty sure that Mexico is the largest speaking Spanish country in the world, and "correct" language is what most people speak, not what academicians think should be spoken. But as you said and I said, it's not good to be between a Mexican and an Argentine/Chilean "discussing" language.

M3: That's another thing I'd point out that Mexico IS the largest Spanish speaking country in the world. There were no representatives from Mexico in these groups, that I can recall; but usually there were at least a couple of Mexican-American US personnel present who appreciated my asserted pride in Mexico. From what I've seen, Mexicans are usually laid back about these types of issues in international company... except when they are arguing with other Mexicans about soccer or home region issues. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isla Verde (Post 9148490)
I think it's a riot if Argentinians think they speak "better" Spanish than Mexicans. To me the language spoken in Argentina has a very Italian cadence, plus the use of "vos" and its odd verb forms have no connection to the way the language is spoken in Spain.

IV: You are sooooo right about that! Nevermind that their accent & expressions were diluted by a major Italian immigration back at the turn of the 20th century. What's even more puzzling are some I've met that bristle at being referred to as "Latin Americans", claiming to be "Europeans" instead! Don't get me started on how they corrupted & incorrectly incorporated the vosotros form of the language...! :rolleyes:

Meritorious-MasoMenos 14th January 2016 01:37 AM

Quote:

IV: You are sooooo right about that! Nevermind that their accent & expressions were diluted by a major Italian immigration back at the turn of the 20th century. What's even more puzzling are some I've met that bristle at being referred to as "Latin Americans", claiming to be "Europeans" instead! Don't get me started on how they corrupted & incorrectly incorporated the vosotros form of the language...! :rolleyes:
So many interesting points on this. Yes, you're all right on the heavy Italian sound of Argentine Spanish .... BUT, I've found that in Spanish, there is a wider gap between spoken and written Spanish, including in newspapers, than in English, especially American English.

I've found La Jornada has the most colloquial Spanish among Mexican newspapers (not talking about its politics) while the broadsheets adhere to more formal Spanish, though I'd like to hear what the native Spanish speakers say.

If you go back and read American papers of the late 19th and early 20th century, they're written in the formal or what I'd call stilted style, at times almost incomprehensible (to me). Not me, but American literary "experts," (not folks I'd like to share a life boat with) give Twain and mostly Hemingway the credit for revolutionizing written English to adhere more to the spoken language.

Will I get into trouble for saying that many folks describe many great modern Spanish writers as "flowery" in their style, anathema in English? Hit me, Spanish speakers. Anyway, that's why, perhaps, Argentines and their Southern Core cohorts can attack Mexican Spanish, thinking they'll find allies in Spain, because they think their written language follows more to traditional Castilian? Again, Mexico is confirmed as the largest Spanish speaking country in the world, and isn't it the strongest and largest economy in the Spanish speaking world (?). The majority always wins in language wars.

(I also read three Brit dailies daily, and while they're trying to get as breezy as American newspapers, their prose often follows Dickens a bit too much, I find. Canadians more conversational, Aussies almost as well. Can't help it. I'm a news junkie. I should dedicate myself to more uplifting activities.)

Isla Verde 14th January 2016 02:02 AM

Quote:

IV: You are sooooo right about that! Nevermind that their accent & expressions were diluted by a major Italian immigration back at the turn of the 20th century. What's even more puzzling are some I've met that bristle at being referred to as "Latin Americans", claiming to be "Europeans" instead!
That sounds like things I heard from Catalans when I was living in Barcelona in 1974-75, in the months before Franco died. They referred to themselves as Europeans, never as Spaniards, and tended to look down on people from other parts of Spain who had moved to Barcelona for work. Now, of course, many of them want to separate from Spain and form their own country of Catalunya. They may be surprised when the rest of Europe isn't so eager to welcome them into the EU.

Howler 14th January 2016 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meritorious-MasoMenos (Post 9151778)
So many interesting points on this. Yes, you're all right on the heavy Italian sound of Argentine Spanish .... BUT, I've found that in Spanish, there is a wider gap between spoken and written Spanish, including in newspapers, than in English, especially American English.

Agreed on that, when you're talking about the media. I used to wonder why they didn't dumb down their newspaper language to a 4th grade level like (supposedly) the US. I've never taken as much notice of newspapers from other Latino countries. I did read El País from Spain while in school because it was encouraged as part of a couple of my classes. I just took it as a given that the other countries would be different from Mexico.

I'd also agree with you that Mexico, as the largest Spanish speaking country, should win the "language wars" . However, Spain - the "originator" of the language - has the "academia" to maintain control over what it deems pure Spanish. My professors didn't like my idea that Mexico should create its own academic to compete with Spain's... :brick:
(Damned brick, AGAIN!)


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