"substantial and steady economic resources"...???? - Page 2

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"substantial and steady economic resources"...???? - Page 2


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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 4th May 2016, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellaamalfi View Post
Arturo,
...Could you advise if we were to only apply for residency for one year with an ER with $400k in the bank if you think that would suffice?...
So, once again, let's deal with a couple of issues:

1) Forget about applying for residency. You first need to obtain an Elective Residency visa from the consulate which serves the area where you legally reside. If an ER visa is granted, then you apply for residency in your chosen comune after arriving in Italy. I have not heard of a case where residency was refused after an ER visa was granted; I suppose it could happen, but I have not heard of it.

2) As has been mentioned already, there is no such thing as a "one year elective residency visa." If you tell the consulate that you only want to stay in Italy for one year, your visa will be refused.

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Old 5th May 2016, 06:45 PM
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hi Steve/Bev, my wife and I went through the ER process with the Miami Consulate (in person). We were told $8000/mo for the two of us. They were not at all interested in any mitigating factors. ie; my wife is of Italian decent, I was stationed there for 3 years with NATO. We had a signed rental contract, purchased airfare, FBI check and written narrative on why we wanted to move there. We never got past the $8000. Some folks are saying it doesn't seem fair and I agree, but until someone can show me where it's actually written (chapter & verse) that's the reality. If there's any out there that can prove me wrong I would welcome it.

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Old 5th May 2016, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by accbgb View Post
As has been mentioned already, there is no such thing as a "one year elective residency visa." If you tell the consulate that you only want to stay in Italy for one year, your visa will be refused.
That pretty sums up the point: although all wedding couples take vows "till death do us part", nowadays for one in three marriages those vows go unfulfilled. That notwithstanding, nobody dares to walk up the aisle and say anything else instead.
Similarly, if you don't show an Italian Consular officer enough commitment to spend a substantial part of the rest of your life in Italy, it is unlikely that your ER visa will be granted.

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Old 6th May 2016, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by panama rick View Post
We were told $8000/mo for the two of us.
That makes perfect sense. The published minimum, as described upthread, is (very precisely) 31,159.29 euro per year. The consulate is free to require more but cannot require less. As part of "stable and steady" the consulate would reasonably assume there is some exchange rate risk in a U.S. dollar denominated income flow. (Less risk perhaps than in a Russian ruble denominated income flow, for example, but some exchange rate risk.) Add that all up and an $8,000/month passive income requirement for two adults for an ER visa is not at all surprising.

Doing some more math, an $8,000/month minimum income flow equals a 24% annual drawdown rate if you have $400,000 of wealth. And that's for two adults, no children. Is a 24% annual drawdown rate even remotely consistent with economic reality? I'm afraid not. That math just does not work, and it's hard for me to imagine a consulate ever thinking it would work. (Maybe for a couple in their 90s when they've reached the tail end of the actuarial life expectancy tables.)

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Old 6th May 2016, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BBCWatcher View Post
That makes perfect sense. The published minimum, as described upthread, is (very precisely) 31,159.29 euro per year. The consulate is free to require more but cannot require less. As part of "stable and steady" the consulate would reasonably assume there is some exchange rate risk in a U.S. dollar denominated income flow. (Less risk perhaps than in a Russian ruble denominated income flow, for example, but some exchange rate risk.) Add that all up and an $8,000/month passive income requirement for two adults for an ER visa is not at all surprising.

Doing some more math, an $8,000/month minimum income flow equals a 24% annual drawdown rate if you have $400,000 of wealth. And that's for two adults, no children. Is a 24% annual drawdown rate even remotely consistent with economic reality? I'm afraid not. That math just does not work, and it's hard for me to imagine a consulate ever thinking it would work. (Maybe for a couple in their 90s when they've reached the tail end of the actuarial life expectancy tables.)

While I agree with you completely, the thing that sort of bothers me (well, I have Italian citizenship, so it doesn't directly impact me) is that they are setting that minimum per person and doubling it for a couple. I could see perhaps 140% - 160% of the minimum for a couple, but double?

That does seem a bit unreasonable and unfair. Certainly, if one person can live on ~€31k, then two can live on €40k'ish, wouldn't you agree?

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Old 6th May 2016, 03:13 PM
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The minimum income levels set for immigration purposes aren't strictly about how much one or two people can live on in Italy (or anywhere else for that matter). It's a screening process, pure and simple. Setting a high hurdle rate means that there are fewer immigrants to deal with - and a higher potential for collecting much-needed taxes (not just income, but think VAT) from the immigrants they do allow in.
Cheers,
Bev

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Old 18th May 2016, 03:30 AM
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I just got back from my 2nd trip to Rome. I want to move there very much. The problem is I am 62 and on disability and if I leave the country I will lose a substantial amount of my monthly payments, leaving me with about $700.00 a month. I have seen some very cheap apartments on the outskirts of Rome for between 250 to 350 Euros a month. If I can show thatt I will be renting one of these apartments, with a rental agreement, would that give me a better chance of fulfilling my dream of moving to Rome? Thank you. Sincerely, Dolce100000

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Old 18th May 2016, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Dolce100000 View Post
The problem is I am 62 and on disability and if I leave the country I will lose a substantial amount of my monthly payments, leaving me with about $700.00 a month.
That's a "hard stop" in terms of qualifying for an Elective Residence visa. That figure is less than one quarter of the minimum income level required for a ER visa for a household of one.

If you're "income poor" but at least relatively wealthy -- $750,000 or more in dependable and reasonably liquid wealth, as an educated guess -- then that wealth can effectively "top up" your limited income. Otherwise I'm afraid you're just out of luck for that type of visa.

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Old 5th June 2016, 02:31 AM
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Although the Ministry of Foreign Affairs has set the income requirement at three times the amounts listed on Table A (for establishing income requirements), the Italian Consulates are setting income levels at whatever they want. During the past year, the amounts I have heard from various retirees attempting to obtain an elective residence visa have risen to as much as $4,000 per month PER PERSON, plus substantial savings. I just spoke to a woman who tried to obtain an elective residence visa from the Italian Consulate in NYC who was asked if she had a million dollars in the bank. When she said she did not, the consulate employee said, "Then you don't qualify. Today, only the richest Americans are allowed to obtain the visa." These new income requirements are ridiculous because those of us already living here know quite well that it doesn't take $8,000 a month for a couple to live in Italy. Sadly, that doesn't matter. Although I know several people using various Italian Consulates across the U.S. have come up against this issue, all one can do is try.

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Old 5th June 2016, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Jackster View Post
These new income requirements are ridiculous because those of us already living here know quite well that it doesn't take $8,000 a month for a couple to live in Italy.
That's not the point. The point is, as a public policy goal, to grant residence to foreigners who are unlikely to commit crimes and who are highly likely to spend lots of money in Italy, generating significant economic activity (and tax revenue). Although well-to-do people tend to spend a smaller percentage of their incomes/wealth on consumption than less well-to-do people, they still spend a lot more in absolute terms. That's what the Italian government wants.

Having US$1 million "in the bank" means, at a 4% annual spending rate from that wealth (a typical, "back of the envelope" figure investment advisors use), there's $40,000 in annual spending. At current exchange rates that's just a bit over 35,000 euro, or just a bit over 2,900 euro per month. (And we're not factoring taxes into this rough calculation, which we probably should.) In short, the consulate isn't grabbing these numbers at random. These are the sort of numbers (and bigger) that a "typical" applicant would need to meet the Italian government's public policy goals.


Last edited by BBCWatcher; 5th June 2016 at 02:53 AM.
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