Ofena in Abruzzo - Page 5

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Ofena in Abruzzo - Page 5


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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 21st April 2011, 03:05 PM
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see there you go.. thats a prime example of wrong and totally illegal process.. when you purchase a property in Italy toady you have to sign within the notary act if you paid for any agency service.. its no an optional thing the declaration if made falsely.. means that should it be found not to be true that you could be fined to the extent that you would loose your house that you had just bought..

it is illegal here for any agent that is registered to accept any payment in cash in regards a house sale and no agent that is working within the law here will accept cash it has to be by an assigned check a copy of which is attached to the final act...

to my mind this lack of knowledge of new laws and acceptable ways of doing things here is the cause of a lot of problems for people buying.. they accept these tales that have no meaning in the real Italy and if practised are significant elements that suggest the people either do not know what they are doing or are criminals that not only risk problems for themselves via the agenzia delle entrata... but also place their clienst at risk..the fines for false declarations reagrding all aspects of property sales here are very high.. and there is no benefit for either the buyer the seller or the agent in declaring false information in a sale unless you are paying with your own money obtained via criminal activity.. it really is very dangerous practice and to my mind stupid...

the most costly part of any property will be the restructure.. a full restructure on a property with no roof works out at for building costs 1500 euro per sq m.. almost doubled for seimic class 1 zones.. plus vat at 20 % and geometra /architect fees of between 13 % and 20 % so say a very small 100 meter square ruin will cost you 150,000 euro to restore plus tax an added 30,000 euro plus fees between 20 and 30,000 euro... so if you add purchase price for a property as suggested above.. 12,000 you are looking at full restructure costs if it around the 100 sq meter mark..about a 2 bedroom size house of close to 200,000 now you tell me if thats a bargain ..its not and even worse at that price or even half that price if your circumstances change you would not even be able to sell it for half that..
That still sounds reasonable. 200,000 euro for a modern 100 square meter house is still about 25% less than you would pay in Calgary and I imagine a lot less than the cost in England or Holland. Italy is not a 3rd. world country where labor is cheap! As in all things you get what you pay for and your expectations should be geared accordingly. We paid 33,000 euro for our house , the same price I paid for our Honda Element. I don't expect the Honda to last more than 10 years and it won't be worth anything at the end and I will have no regrets. We've already had several months living in our Italian house (usually 1 month at a time) and it was money well spent. If I had spent 200,000 euro for the house then I would have expected a lot more from it but we are perfectly happy with the way it is and if it collapses in an earthquake we still have the land and can rebuild if we want to.

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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 21st April 2011, 03:26 PM
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That still sounds reasonable. 200,000 euro for a modern 100 square meter house is still about 25% less than you would pay in Calgary and I imagine a lot less than the cost in England or Holland. Italy is not a 3rd. world country where labor is cheap! As in all things you get what you pay for and your expectations should be geared accordingly. We paid 33,000 euro for our house , the same price I paid for our Honda Element. I don't expect the Honda to last more than 10 years and it won't be worth anything at the end and I will have no regrets. We've already had several months living in our Italian house (usually 1 month at a time) and it was money well spent. If I had spent 200,000 euro for the house then I would have expected a lot more from it but we are perfectly happy with the way it is and if it collapses in an earthquake we still have the land and can rebuild if we want to.
200.000euros for a 2 bedroom 100m2 house expensive these days.
In the Uk you will get that size house for a lot less than that and even in Cyprus where property is more expensive than the Uk you can expect to get a 120m2 house for that.

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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 21st April 2011, 04:16 PM
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200.000euros for a 2 bedroom 100m2 house expensive these days.
In the Uk you will get that size house for a lot less than that and even in Cyprus where property is more expensive than the Uk you can expect to get a 120m2 house for that.
Maybe I've been mislead by the TV programs we get showing the UK house market.
I saw one last night from I think Portsmouth. 175,000 pounds for a sort of 2 bedroom Victorian row house that was trashed inside. The repair budget was 50,000 pounds.
Also watched one from Amsterdam with an American buying a 1 bedroom apartment for $400,000. Maybe outside the cities the prices are lower?

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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 21st April 2011, 04:43 PM
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see there you go.. thats a prime example of wrong and totally illegal process.. when you purchase a property in Italy toady you have to sign within the notary act if you paid for any agency service.. its no an optional thing the declaration if made falsely.. means that should it be found not to be true that you could be fined to the extent that you would loose your house that you had just bought..

it is illegal here for any agent that is registered to accept any payment in cash in regards a house sale and no agent that is working within the law here will accept cash it has to be by an assigned check a copy of which is attached to the final act...

to my mind this lack of knowledge of new laws and acceptable ways of doing things here is the cause of a lot of problems for people buying.. they accept these tales that have no meaning in the real Italy and if practised are significant elements that suggest the people either do not know what they are doing or are criminals that not only risk problems for themselves via the agenzia delle entrata... but also place their clienst at risk..the fines for false declarations reagrding all aspects of property sales here are very high.. and there is no benefit for either the buyer the seller or the agent in declaring false information in a sale unless you are paying with your own money obtained via criminal activity.. it really is very dangerous practice and to my mind stupid...

the most costly part of any property will be the restructure.. a full restructure on a property with no roof works out at for building costs 1500 euro per sq m.. almost doubled for seimic class 1 zones.. plus vat at 20 % and geometra /architect fees of between 13 % and 20 % so say a very small 100 meter square ruin will cost you 150,000 euro to restore plus tax an added 30,000 euro plus fees between 20 and 30,000 euro... so if you add purchase price for a property as suggested above.. 12,000 you are looking at full restructure costs if it around the 100 sq meter mark..about a 2 bedroom size house of close to 200,000 now you tell me if thats a bargain ..its not and even worse at that price or even half that price if your circumstances change you would not even be able to sell it for half that..
Yes I was annoyed but nothing I could do about it at the time - so be warned - make things clear up front. I know a lot more now and wouldnt get caught out by all the cash a second time around and is one of thereasons I say not to use HAI other than to get a feel for what you want. The biggest costs are a new roof and appropriate supports/ties. also remember you have to have any work signed off at the commune - to do that it has to be done by a qualified person. Even small projects need architects/engineer/geometra and have to be approved.

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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 22nd April 2011, 07:53 AM
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barry

i can see your point.. and it is annoying when you do see people invest as you say what would be the price of a car in a property and then expect it all to happen and be rebuilt at an unrealistic price..and if that does not happen they get annoyed.. complain about agents.. complain about geometras and then say Italy is a rip off country full of cheats..

however when you buy a car the saleman try as he might cannot fool you into thinking that the car is roadworthy if there are no wheels.. and before you take it out on the road you expect to test drive and assure yourself it has at least an engine and brakes.. and thats the problem with so called agents .. selling property here.. i use so called agents purposely as those people behaving in a strictly unlawful way bring shame on us all.. and even though people will often ignore advice about how to restore and who to use and what it will cost at least at the end of it they cannot then complain if they do go there own way that they didnt know better.. well they can but you sympathy does not last that long ..

so even though i dispute your figures.. re prices and costs.. i still do not see any value in your method of thinking for most people who cannot afford to throw such large sums of money at something which will give no return.. in fact i would call your philosophy very un american and quite unusual .. most of us think of leaving something to our children to do with as they want.. spending 200,000 for something that will give you back at max say 50-70,000 euro means a net loss of 130,000 and to be honest i think thats how most families will look at it.. and if it falls down again and has to be rebuilt then you end up with even less .. in fact you are at a negative value..

building land is aprox 15-20 euro per sq meter.. in remote rural areas like ofena.. habitable property in a normal condition works out between 500-750 euro per sq meter.. that means of a standard that would allow you to move in to a property with all services and structure up to standard.. most probably double glazed and centrally heated.. this is the quoted value of a villa .. the highest valued property i have put a link to the official national land registry figures for ofena.. you can do this for any comune..

so i know you are happy with how things have gone for you and your philosophy is rare .. not one i admire.. because i am a capitalist at heart.. but one i can sympathise with

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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 22nd April 2011, 10:08 AM
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That still sounds reasonable. 200,000 euro for a modern 100 square meter house is still about 25% less than you would pay in Calgary and I imagine a lot less than the cost in England or Holland. Italy is not a 3rd. world country where labor is cheap! As in all things you get what you pay for and your expectations should be geared accordingly. We paid 33,000 euro for our house , the same price I paid for our Honda Element. I don't expect the Honda to last more than 10 years and it won't be worth anything at the end and I will have no regrets. We've already had several months living in our Italian house (usually 1 month at a time) and it was money well spent. If I had spent 200,000 euro for the house then I would have expected a lot more from it but we are perfectly happy with the way it is and if it collapses in an earthquake we still have the land and can rebuild if we want to.
I think you are right Barry - you get what you pay for and for many people all they want is a holiday home in a lovely place. many people are prepared to spend money on these old houses and do actually want to keep them because they like them not for investment. But on the otherhand you do need to be aware of the real costs if you buy into the renovation idea. I think in this region buying and then renovating is a costly option. I also see that many Italians dont do stuff themselves such as painting and basic repairs. They also prefer aliminium windows and doors - practical but an added cost - a friend of mine has lovingly stripped all her old windows and doors and they look fantastic - only cost her time. I managed to salvage my windows much to the amasement of the locals who thought I was potty but who in the end said they looked much better than my rich neighbours aliminuium ones - wether I can survive the winter with them i dont know - but I do like the original glass and the way things look through them.

You just need to do things with your eyes open. budget for a new roof irrespective of what any agent says.
Pam

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 22nd April 2011, 05:31 PM
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barry

i can see your point.. and it is annoying when you do see people invest as you say what would be the price of a car in a property and then expect it all to happen and be rebuilt at an unrealistic price..and if that does not happen they get annoyed.. complain about agents.. complain about geometras and then say Italy is a rip off country full of cheats..

however when you buy a car the saleman try as he might cannot fool you into thinking that the car is roadworthy if there are no wheels.. and before you take it out on the road you expect to test drive and assure yourself it has at least an engine and brakes.. and thats the problem with so called agents .. selling property here.. i use so called agents purposely as those people behaving in a strictly unlawful way bring shame on us all.. and even though people will often ignore advice about how to restore and who to use and what it will cost at least at the end of it they cannot then complain if they do go there own way that they didnt know better.. well they can but you sympathy does not last that long ..

so even though i dispute your figures.. re prices and costs.. i still do not see any value in your method of thinking for most people who cannot afford to throw such large sums of money at something which will give no return.. in fact i would call your philosophy very un american and quite unusual .. most of us think of leaving something to our children to do with as they want.. spending 200,000 for something that will give you back at max say 50-70,000 euro means a net loss of 130,000 and to be honest i think thats how most families will look at it.. and if it falls down again and has to be rebuilt then you end up with even less .. in fact you are at a negative value..

building land is aprox 15-20 euro per sq meter.. in remote rural areas like ofena.. habitable property in a normal condition works out between 500-750 euro per sq meter.. that means of a standard that would allow you to move in to a property with all services and structure up to standard.. most probably double glazed and centrally heated.. this is the quoted value of a villa .. the highest valued property i have put a link to the official national land registry figures for ofena.. you can do this for any comune..

so i know you are happy with how things have gone for you and your philosophy is rare .. not one i admire.. because i am a capitalist at heart.. but one i can sympathise with
Actually it is very common here for people to spend 80,000 euro on a truck and trailer or a motorhome. It's not thought of as an investment but as something that provides enjoyment. Resale value is a fraction of the original costs but that isn't it's purpose. If you want an investment there are lots of better places to buy than Italy!
For us it's family. I am related to everyone in Carrufo, Villa Santa Lucia, Ofena and Brittoli so spending 50,000 euro to be near them is no problem and in the long run it is probably cheaper than spending 100 euro a day for hotels. The others like Pam and Judy want to make Ofena their home.
I agree with your price for a reasonable liveable house. The one across from us is for sale and they are asking 58,000 euro. 2 bedroom with central heat and move in ready. The interior, furniture and appliances are all working but date from the early 1960's so you could be happy with that or remodel and spend another 25,000 updating everything. You couldn't resell it for 75,000 euro however. They are having a tough time at the current asking price. Our area is for people who want to stay or to have a permanent holiday home not for someone who wants to renovate and make a profit.

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Old 5th May 2011, 10:55 PM
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Thanks Barry.
Can't find how to send a private message. Can you send one to me so that I can reply? Thanks
Andy
Hi, I own a small apartment in Ofena and despite the earthquake and some of complications, still love the area and am happy visiting there.

I'll be there in 3 weeks time at the end of May for a week. I used House Around Italy to buy the property and was happy overall since I knew nothing about buying in Italy. Barry is correct the notary does most of the official work but it was helpful to have an Italian represent you and translate. They also "helped" with a property survey which led to nothing other than a fee, "helped" me set up an Italian bank account with an agent which cost fees and "helped" with the notary for a fee - trying at one point to get us to pay for the seller's fees as well. You have to be very careful to negotiate on your own behalf because their primary interest is getting the property sold - not getting you a good price. You should be able to get a good deal now. Our local rep from HAI was Maurizio who was very patient and helpful.

Prior to the earthquake in 2007 we paid $34,000 Euros for a small apartment which has 1 nice bedroom, 1 small bedroom, a functional bathroom and shower, functional kitchen and lounge. It is small but kind of the size of a hotel suite and perfect for visiting a week at a time. I would expect to pay much less now considering the economy, the lack of UK investors and the earthquake.


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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 6th May 2011, 07:47 PM
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Hi, I own a small apartment in Ofena and despite the earthquake and some of complications, still love the area and am happy visiting there.

I'll be there in 3 weeks time at the end of May for a week. I used House Around Italy to buy the property and was happy overall since I knew nothing about buying in Italy. Barry is correct the notary does most of the official work but it was helpful to have an Italian represent you and translate. They also "helped" with a property survey which led to nothing other than a fee, "helped" me set up an Italian bank account with an agent which cost fees and "helped" with the notary for a fee - trying at one point to get us to pay for the seller's fees as well. You have to be very careful to negotiate on your own behalf because their primary interest is getting the property sold - not getting you a good price. You should be able to get a good deal now. Our local rep from HAI was Maurizio who was very patient and helpful.

Prior to the earthquake in 2007 we paid $34,000 Euros for a small apartment which has 1 nice bedroom, 1 small bedroom, a functional bathroom and shower, functional kitchen and lounge. It is small but kind of the size of a hotel suite and perfect for visiting a week at a time. I would expect to pay much less now considering the economy, the lack of UK investors and the earthquake.
Wish we could go this month as well! Aiming for September hopefully. We still haven't got a bill from Enel.

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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 9th May 2011, 01:25 PM
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sorry to change the theme but does anyone have information about a donkey sanctuary in ofena. thanks

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