Possibly an Italian citizen - Page 4

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Possibly an Italian citizen - Page 4


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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 25th June 2014, 05:09 AM
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OK you've peaked my curiosity - My family on my mothers side (full blooded Italian) came from Sicily & Rome around the turn of the century (1900). How would I go about tracing my family & how would I determine if any/all of them did not renounce their citizenship ?

Also, since it was brought up - what is the expected cost to have someone do the required research to and compile the required documents & how long.

Thank you for any help

Dan

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 25th June 2014, 09:17 AM
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It sounds like you already know a great deal. In brief, you always need to find a direct ancestor whose birth was documented in Italy. If you know which ancestor that is, and where that ancestor was born, write to the commune and request a copy of that ancestor's birth certificate.

At some point that ancestor (or his child perhaps) emigrated to the U.S. (in your case). Then you'll need to perform a diligent search to determine when/how that immigrant naturalized as a U.S. citizen. Naturalization, well timed, is actually a good thing. USCIS and NARA have most U.S. naturalization records. Adequately proving non-naturalization requires a bit more work.

You'll need to assemble a complete set of civil records -- birth, marriage, death, etc. -- up and down your direct line back to Italy. At some consulates they also want to see non-line spouses' records. If there are discrepancies among those records sometimes they're a problem, sometimes not. If they're a problem, you have to take steps to remedy them. There are a variety of ways to do that.

While all this research and document gathering is going on typically you'll want to make an appointment with an Italian consulate for citizenship recognition. You can always reschedule or cancel, but there is a long delay at most consulates. At the consulate in Miami the wait for an appointment is currently running about two years.

With respect to costs, if you want to hire somebody else to do the job it really just depends on the complexity of the case, document fees, and research time. It's not really the sort of thing you have to contract out, though. It is something you can do on your own in your spare time. Or hire an enthusiastic member of your family who is also interested. For example, you could come to an arrangement that you'll pay for all postal, document, apostille, translation, and other fees, while that other family member donates his/her time if you don't have enough.

Starting soon (sometime this year) there will be a new 300 euro fee charged per adult applicant for Italian citizenship recognition. That's up from the current application fee of zero. So unfortunately you have to factor that 300 euro into the total costs now.


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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 25th June 2014, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtolan View Post
OK you've peaked my curiosity - My family on my mothers side (full blooded Italian) came from Sicily & Rome around the turn of the century (1900). How would I go about tracing my family & how would I determine if any/all of them did not renounce their citizenship ?

Also, since it was brought up - what is the expected cost to have someone do the required research to and compile the required documents & how long.

Thank you for any help

Dan
i have a freind who spechalises in this and does not charge much when you have

more posts i will send you his e mail adress

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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 1st July 2014, 06:15 AM
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I have a feeling that I'd use my citizenship to go to England or somewhere else in the EU that is English-speaking. But again, I have a number of years (I'm a college kid) to figure this stuff out and get planned.
I'd suggest not waiting and thinking things will last forever.
Italy is under no obligation to recognize citizenship Jure Sanguinis, it could continue for the next 100 years or it could end with the flip of a statuatory switch .

While there's nothing in the pipeline to suggest they're going to stop the program (countries that recognize JS such as the UK, Israel, India tend to view it is a deeply held tradition), as an example of how rapidly things can change; BBCWatcher noted in the middle of this month that there is no fee to claim Jure Sanguinis citizenship, that was correct and how its been for 100 years... until July 8th of this year when for the first time, a 300 Euro fee goes into effect for Jure Sanguinis applications.

Consulate appointments are running upwards of a year or even two (I think Miami is the most backlogged) just to be seen. This is independant of the initial document gathering phase which can take months, with the possible headaches of amendments/modifications/perfections of document errors that may require a court order to fix.

A lot can change in a year or two. If this is something you plan on doing, you can wait, hope nothing changes and if nothing does, no harm... or, you can wait but if things change, the door may close and you are left out in the cold.

Just to reiterate, this is not fearmongering, there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that they're about to stop accepting JS but the implementation of a 300 Euro fee is a strong indicator that its on their radar and probably being monitored for positive or negative effect. God forbid a JS citizen move to Italy and commit some horrible crime.


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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 1st July 2014, 06:37 AM
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I'd suggest not waiting and thinking things will last forever.
Italy is under no obligation to recognize citizenship Jure Sanguinis, it could continue for the next 100 years or it could end with the flip of a statuatory switch .

While there's nothing in the pipeline to suggest they're going to stop the program (countries that recognize JS such as the UK, Israel, India tend to view it is a deeply held tradition), as an example of how rapidly things can change; BBCWatcher noted in the middle of this month that there is no fee to claim Jure Sanguinis citizenship, that was correct and how its been for 100 years... until July 8th of this year when for the first time, a 300 Euro fee goes into effect for Jure Sanguinis applications.

Consulate appointments are running upwards of a year or even two (I think Miami is the most backlogged) just to be seen. This is independant of the initial document gathering phase which can take months, with the possible headaches of amendments/modifications/perfections of document errors that may require a court order to fix.

A lot can change in a year or two. If this is something you plan on doing, you can wait, hope nothing changes and if nothing does, no harm... or, you can wait but if things change, the door may close and you are left out in the cold.

Just to reiterate, this is not fearmongering, there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that they're about to stop accepting JS but the implementation of a 300 Euro fee is a strong indicator that its on their radar and probably being monitored for positive or negative effect. God forbid a JS citizen move to Italy and commit some horrible crime.
My dad thinks I'm an idiot for wanting to leave the US and says I'd be paying a huge amount in taxes to both countries and such. This is my only way to leave the US it seems, as these highly nationalist and strict immigration laws in place in Australia, Canada, and England only punish people like me: those who want to move there and be a good citizen and pay my taxes and obey the law and do it the right way simply because I don't have a job in a certain field. That's why they have people overstay their visas and remain illegally because to illegally immigrate is the only way to get in!

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Old 1st July 2014, 07:13 AM
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On whether or not you're an idiot for wanting to leave the US, that's a hot debate but a pointless one to have. Peoples emotions are just too deep.

I would say this: Cuba is a good example of the different 'phases' of migrants.
When Castro was rising to power, their smartest and wealthiest flew into Miami on airplanes.
When Castro finally seized power, their next smartest left in fishing boats.

When the remaining population finally realized that it was too late to leave freely and they no longer wanted to stay, their only option was to make a raft out of steel oil drums and hope they weren't eaten by sharks or shot by the Cuban Navy...

As far as the United States goes, I think we're in the 'leave on airplanes' phase. Don't worry yourself debating people who 'don't get it'. Just wish them the best as you leave them behind.

If you renounce/relinquish your citizenship, you have no further tax obligations to the US.

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Old 1st July 2014, 08:44 AM
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My dad thinks I'm an idiot for wanting to leave the US and says I'd be paying a huge amount in taxes to both countries and such.
Your father is misinformed.

Under the U.S. income tax code, U.S. persons (U.S. citizens, U.S. nationals, and U.S. permanent residents) residing overseas pay no more than the U.S. income tax rate or the foreign income tax rate, whichever is higher. Moreover, if the foreign income tax rate is lower than the U.S. income tax rate, typically U.S. persons residing overseas pay a lower income tax rate than similarly situated peers living in the U.S. If that's not enough, a higher foreign income tax rate is often recoverable in the form of future U.S. income tax savings, as would be the case when receiving income in a comparatively high income tax jurisdiction followed by moving back to the U.S. and receiving taxable income in the U.S.

The primary provisions in the U.S. income tax code that result in what I just described are the Foreign Tax Credit and the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion.

All that's without any tax treaty. The United States and Italy specifically have a tax treaty that provides more tax breaks to certain individuals and organizations. Also, Italy happens to be a comparatively high income tax jurisdiction, and those higher Italian tax payments may be recoverable from your U.S. tax bill if you return to the U.S.

Please note I'm describing income taxes. Social insurance taxes (payroll taxes), for example, can operate differently, though as it happens the U.S. and Italy have a Social Security treaty, too. Also, taxes are only one part of one's financial life and not necessarily even the most important part. For example, in Italy general tax revenues (income taxes, VAT, excise taxes, etc.) pay for publicly supported medical care available to all Italian citizens (and many others) living in Italy. Medical care is not 100% free for most people -- that's an exaggeration -- but one's out-of-pocket costs are much lower than U.S. norms. Opinions differ, but most people think Italy offers a much better deal on medical care than the U.S. does (even post-PPACA).

Nothing I just wrote should be construed as a recommendation on where to live, but "you'll pay double the taxes" and variously similar assertions are simply not accurate.

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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 6th July 2014, 10:36 PM
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Where did you get the forms (online? - can you pm me the link ) - I would love to see what type of documentations I will need to get. I have traced my family - My 4 great grandparents (Mothers side) - all originated in Italy and migrated around the turn of the 20th century.

Also, who a the Italian consulate do I need to make an appointment with, what documentation should I expect to show prior to the appointment ?

TY

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 17th August 2014, 09:34 AM
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I've known for a while now that I want to leave the United States, but I wasn't sure where I'd go or how to get there with all the strict immigration laws in place in Australia, Canada, and England. However, I discovered that I may have a claim to birthright Italian citizenship.

My great-grandfather emigrated to the United States in 1905 and never renounced his Italian citizenship. He fathered my grandfather in 1932, who fathered my father in 1958, and here I am, born in 1995. According to the Italian Consulate's website, birthright citizenship extends to the direct descendants with no limit on generations. I'm going to give the Italian consulate in Detroit a call (I'm from Michigan) and see what they can do for me, however if I'm entitled to citizenship, I have a feeling that I have a flight to Rome in my near future.
It sounds like you are in a similar situation that I was in years ago. I was taking Italian lessons back in 1991 at a local college when a girl in my class told me about dual citizenship. I'll never forget the moment when she told me to.. "hurry up" because they were putting limit restrictions on granting Italian citizenship's at the time.

So, I inquired about it at the Newark, NJ consulates office. I can't exactly remember how the conversation went but I inherited the citizenship through my grandfather. I found his entry papers in Jersey City records office and made a copy and brought it back to the consulates office. My grandfather entered the United States in 1913, my father was born in 1917, making my father an Italian citizen according to the Italian government.

There was a law (that I can't remember) passed in the United States during 1933. My grandfather didn't become an American citizen until 1948 which made it possible for me to recognized by the Italian government as an Italian national. If my grandfather became an American citizen before '33 then I'm pretty sure that would have excluded me from becoming an Italian citizen.

The whole process went quite easy for me. I'm sure that things have changed but it seems that they put restrictions whenever corruption is uncovered. I've heard of a number of consulates selling citizenship's and losing their position for it. I really think they (Italian government) don't like it when things spiral out of control, plus it's not fair to those who have (Jus Sanguinis)the right of blood inheritance as the Italian government intended long ago.

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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 17th August 2014, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by AmericanWantsToLeave View Post
My dad thinks I'm an idiot for wanting to leave the US and says I'd be paying a huge amount in taxes to both countries and such. This is my only way to leave the US it seems, as these highly nationalist and strict immigration laws in place in Australia, Canada, and England only punish people like me: those who want to move there and be a good citizen and pay my taxes and obey the law and do it the right way simply because I don't have a job in a certain field. That's why they have people overstay their visas and remain illegally because to illegally immigrate is the only way to get in!
It sounds more like your father loves his son and doesn't want to lose him. And if you were to add on all the negative things he heard form his parents and grandparents you'd understand better. I wouldn't let something like high or double taxing deter you, or any other type of illegality. Once you have your citizenship you are legal to enter and stay for as long as you like. And if this is what you really want then I would go for it. But as an older and wiser man I suggest you test the waters first.
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