Help! Panic! Mortgage! - Page 2

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Help! Panic! Mortgage! - Page 2


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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 19th March 2019, 10:43 AM
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In many ways I agreed that having a solicitor in Italy was a total waste of money. However for many reasons above from Troz we were pleased we did and it did not cost a lot in the scheme of things.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 19th March 2019, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Troz View Post
As explained to us, under Italian law, you cannot enter into a contract as a foreigner unless you can demonstrate that you speak and read Italian well enough to understand the legal implications of signing ...we signed over a limited power of attorney (procura speciale) to our lawyer which enabled him to sign the purchase contract on our behalf
To be fully accurate, I should have added "or, you can pay to have the whole contract translated by a government-accredited translator". Since our contract ran to 22 pages, I can't even begin to think what that would have cost!
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 19th March 2019, 06:38 PM
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You could have a translator translate the Notaio meeting. The Notaio is going to require it if you don't seem fluent or close to it. It's not so much a citizenship issue. An Italian citizen who didn't understand Italian would have the same problem.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 4th April 2019, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Troz View Post
We used an English-speaking lawyer (not in Sicily alas so no point recommending him).

Italian friends were dismissive of the idea - "why pay someone to do something that you could do yourself?". But we were glad we did, not because the lawyer identified serious issues, but because for the cost (not exorbitant by Australian standards) we were buying extra peace of mind at what was already a mildly stressful time.

An expat acquaintance told us the story (possibly apocryphal) of a foreign couple who bought a property out in the country without a lawyer. Money was handed over, door keys handed back, title deeds registered, and all looked OK. They drove to their new property to find the front gates locked. No-one had told them that the driveway crossed the neighbouring farmer's property, and that he would require payment before allowing them in.

At that point we decided to go for the lawyer right at the start of the process.

There is another consideration, which may not apply to you. As explained to us, under Italian law, you cannot enter into a contract as a foreigner unless you can demonstrate that you speak and read Italian well enough to understand the legal implications of signing. Since we couldn't really claim that, we signed over a limited power of attorney (procura speciale) to our lawyer which enabled him to sign the purchase contract on our behalf, and gave him the responsibility of ensuring that we understood everything. Having our own lawyer was also helpful in dealing with the Notaio, who seemed inclined to look for difficulties that our lawyer had foreseen. At the last minute our lawyer dealt with a problem when the vendors decided they needed the bank cheque made out to a different beneficiary!

And afterwards (do not underrate the importance of this) your lawyer will be part of your network of acquaintances in your new home town. Buy him or her a nice present.
Hi all,

Sorry for not replying.. I have been getting very lost in all of this.

So I am buying with my wife who is Sicilian and my Italian is OK. My problem is more about experience and understanding the consequences of the issue.

The donation will be removed from the property a couple of days before the signing of the paperwork so that problem has been resolved but a new one (surprise surprise) has come up. We have asked a notary to look into the property and apparently in 2012 the owner did some work that needed to be completed by 2015. My understanding is that work was not completed and the house does not currently have the certificato d'agibilità.

Now I have gone through pages and pages on the internet many of which tell me that it will cost me under €1000 to resolve and some which say it can be as high as €6000.

Has anyone got experience of this. Unfortunately my Sicilian circle when I ask look at me more blankly than I look at them and worse is when they say... "Ah you'll be alright you don't really need that"... Just seems a very Sicilian attitude towards it. The notary seemed suitably alarmed however.

Any and all help gratefully appreciated.

Kenzo

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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 4th April 2019, 05:26 PM
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Ask the Notaio. He might not be willing to conclude the deal.

The other thing is to wander over to the town hall and start asking questions. They'll be better than us at giving you an idea on costs.
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Old 4th April 2019, 10:06 PM
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Regarding the existence or otherwise of the appropriate permits and certificates, and rectifying any issues, we used a geometrà (sort of between a builder and an architect). We were planning some renovations so were going to need one anyway, but this fellow was very helpful and well-connected at the local town hall as well. And he is cheaper than a lawyer!

PS: the notaio is a gatekeeper, and more influential than a public notary in the UK or Australia. It's in his or her nature to raise problems. Ours raised questions about whether there were inconsistencies between Italian and Australian property ownership and inheritance laws, of all things. We were buying the property in my name, and he thought there might be a problem if I pre-decease my wife. He then went on to find the solutions himself, after scaring us.
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Last edited by Troz; 4th April 2019 at 10:10 PM.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 5th April 2019, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troz View Post
Regarding the existence or otherwise of the appropriate permits and certificates, and rectifying any issues, we used a geometrà (sort of between a builder and an architect). We were planning some renovations so were going to need one anyway, but this fellow was very helpful and well-connected at the local town hall as well. And he is cheaper than a lawyer!

PS: the notaio is a gatekeeper, and more influential than a public notary in the UK or Australia. It's in his or her nature to raise problems. Ours raised questions about whether there were inconsistencies between Italian and Australian property ownership and inheritance laws, of all things. We were buying the property in my name, and he thought there might be a problem if I pre-decease my wife. He then went on to find the solutions himself, after scaring us.
I am quite happy to be scared if it is legitimate. My biggest fear is getting the house and then not being able to live in it.

Nearly every Sicilian I have spoken to (not exaggerating) has told me their houses do not have this certificate. I know things are less controlled down here than the North but just want to make sure I won't pass any problems on to my kids.... God knows when I became this mature

I will keep digging with the comunes and notaio but for now any future readers having a browse key points are:

1/ Does the house have a "Donazione" if it DOES this is BAD and could leave you massively out of pocket for the entire value of the house + and even put you on the street!

2/ Does the house have a certificato d'agibilità. If it DOESN'T then you may not be able to legally live their without being fined.

3/ DO NOT SIGN A COMPROMESSO BEFORE GETTING PAPERWORK LOOKED AT BY A NOTAIO OR LAWYER! Regardless of how the nice agency man smiles and tells you the entire process is about trust!

If it helps just one person in future then job done!

Kenzo
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 5th April 2019, 12:03 PM
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Well no agibilita means no residence. Aren't you already living in the house? I thought so

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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 5th April 2019, 12:07 PM
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Well no agibilita means no residence. Aren't you already living in the house? I thought so
Hi Nick,

No not yet. From what we have been told we can live in the house, we can have residence, but then we get an administrative fine + cost to put it right if the house gets controlled.

Which in Sicily is unlikely... then again you only need to spend 5 minutes in a Sicilian comune to realise they make it up as they go along

Kenzo

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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 5th April 2019, 12:58 PM
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Is anybody else living there? Or is it vacant?

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