Perm Residents status vs FBAR penalties - Page 10

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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 24th November 2011, 06:21 PM
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Yes, but if you are currently serving, you can still change your intent--intent is for you decide, not them. It doesn't matter that ten years ago you didn't have the intent. You are now serving--and that in itself is potentially relinquishing act, provided you have the intent and you inform them that you have the intent to relinquish; so I'd go to the Consulate and then tell them as much. Insist on your right to relinquish.

Also, the scenario you suggest is probably also acceptable. But I would do it in military setting or in front of a judge if possible.
I got out years ago, fwiw.
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 24th November 2011, 06:32 PM
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I got out years ago, fwiw.
Well, then like I said, renunciation is probably the simplest route, since State is probably not going to accept your relinquishment retroactive. Too bad really.

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  #93 (permalink)  
Old 24th November 2011, 08:12 PM
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I think anyone who has obtained a US passport, regardless of where they were born, has to go through the exercise of renouncing, like it or not. Remember that a passport application is what allowed the British to hang Lord Haw-Haw after the war.

If I hadn't done that I'd totally be looking into relinquishing - it sounds much simpler. I've done a number of things, like becoming a Canadian officer, which would have been automatically expatriating before Afroyim v. Rusk.
In times of war, execution is the punishment for traitors. As such it is much safer if in the unlikely event of war versus the States, it would be best to renounce your citizenship. If you carry a Canadian citizenship solely, you are subject to the Geneva Convention and as a prisoner of war, you would have rights. Carrying a U.S. passport in such a case or having not renunciated your US citizenship (as unlikely as it may sound) would result in your execution in the worst case - life imprisonment at the best. And serving as an officer in the Canadian Armed Forces while carrying your U.S. passport and being captured by US Forces, would be tantamount to treason at the highest order (if a state of war were to exist between Canada and the United States) and would result in such offender being given the death sentence and summary execution.

As ridiculous as it may sound, look at the US UCMJ. The penalties for treason are written out in full.

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  #94 (permalink)  
Old 24th November 2011, 08:43 PM
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I would assume many U.S. born Canadian citizens have U.S. passports because they were spotted as being U.S. born persons carrying a Canadian passport. I know of one such person who was bullied into obtaining one a few years ago and he only uses it when going to the States.
Question 14 page 4 of DS4079 asks: "What passport do you use to travel to and from the United States?"
Question 15 of DS4079 asks: "What passport do you use to travel to and from other countries?"
I question why having a U.S. passport would prevent someone from relinquishing their U.S. citizenship if they never lived there or only lived there briefly, owned no property/bank account, earned no income from the U.S. and have few if any personal ties to the United States.
Why? Because it can be reasonably interpreted as evidence that one has benefited from their U.S. citizenship, which undermines any argument of intent to relinquish at the time you became a Canadian citizen. In fairness, I would argue that applying for and using a U.S. passport does indeed contradict any stated intention to lose U.S. citizenship.
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Old 24th November 2011, 09:45 PM
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Why? Because it can be reasonably interpreted as evidence that one has benefited from their U.S. citizenship, which undermines any argument of intent to relinquish at the time you became a Canadian citizen. In fairness, I would argue that applying for and using a U.S. passport does indeed contradict any stated intention to lose U.S. citizenship.
Yes generally this is right. But when the border guards insist that you have a US documents if you have US birthplace, then an official of the government is placing an obstacle to the person's right to relinquish, if that was their intention. So in other words, incompetence is creating a situation.

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Old 24th November 2011, 10:08 PM
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Yes generally this is right. But when the border guards insist that you have a US documents if you have US birthplace, then an official of the government is placing an obstacle to the person's right to relinquish, if that was their intention. So in other words, incompetence is creating a situation.
Very curious to cross the border and see if anything is said since I entered then opted out of OVDI and the Consul would not give me copies of my renunciation forms!
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Old 24th November 2011, 10:13 PM
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Why? Because it can be reasonably interpreted as evidence that one has benefited from their U.S. citizenship, which undermines any argument of intent to relinquish at the time you became a Canadian citizen. In fairness, I would argue that applying for and using a U.S. passport does indeed contradict any stated intention to lose U.S. citizenship.
I find it curious they say some benefit from a U.S. passport and I suppose some do. However, I never intended to obtain one and only did so when the law changed so that you could not cross the U.S. border driving without one. For years I crossed on my landing document and my birth certificate. I HAD to obtain a U.S. passport to cross the border as per their new rules. Otherwise, I would not have bothered with one at all. They do know people had to travel on one after 9/11/2001 so it wasn't a choice to "benefit" from that blue passport for a lot of people. They would argue otherwise but, the logic in telling people that you legally must travel on one then saying you intended to benefit from it is a little bit more word salad again for us I believe.
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Old 24th November 2011, 10:33 PM
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Why? Because it can be reasonably interpreted as evidence that one has benefited from their U.S. citizenship, which undermines any argument of intent to relinquish at the time you became a Canadian citizen. In fairness, I would argue that applying for and using a U.S. passport does indeed contradict any stated intention to lose U.S. citizenship.
I should have added that I have always used my Canadian passport when traveling to the U.S., even though it clearly shows my U.S. birthplace. A couple of times the border guards have given me minor hassles about answering "Canadian" instead of "American" when asking what my citizenship is, but they have never insisted that I need a U.S. passport to enter the country. This too could soon change, and they may begin to fully enforce this policy as well, and then people will have to decide where their true allegiances lie - and live with the consequences.

U.S. citizenship will no longer be retained as a mere convenience (or as a hedge against some unlikely, apocalyptic future where people flee screaming en masse from Canada to the U.S.) when there is so much more at stake - people will only want to keep it if there is an absolutely compelling reason to do so. Getting scolded by a border guard every once in a while isn't a good enough reason, in my book.

In general, I think that the whole idea of dual-citizenship is slowly going by the wayside. Governments in general are now so paranoid and/or broke that they will insist on a higher degree of clarity and commitment from their citizens, wherever they may be. Certainly this entire experience so far is forcing that kind of clarity of thinking in all of us.
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Old 24th November 2011, 10:42 PM
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I should have added that I have always used my Canadian passport when traveling to the U.S., even though it clearly shows my U.S. birthplace. A couple of times the border guards have given me minor hassles about answering "Canadian" instead of "American" when asking what my citizenship is, but they have never insisted that I need a U.S. passport to enter the country. This too could soon change, and they may begin to fully enforce this policy as well, and then people will have to decide where their true allegiances lie - and live with the consequences.

U.S. citizenship will no longer be retained as a mere convenience (or as a hedge against some unlikely, apocalyptic future where people flee screaming en masse from Canada to the U.S.) when there is so much more at stake - people will only want to keep it if there is an absolutely compelling reason to do so. Getting scolded by a border guard every once in a while isn't a good enough reason, in my book.

In general, I think that the whole idea of dual-citizenship is slowly going by the wayside. Governments in general are now so paranoid and/or broke that they will insist on a higher degree of clarity and commitment from their citizens, wherever they may be. Certainly this entire experience so far is forcing that kind of clarity of thinking in all of us.
There are other compelling reasons that have nothing to do with being hassled by an occasional border guard. I felt a loyalty to my country of birth, I didn't come here to escape it but, rather as a kindness to my husband whose parents were much older than mine. I kept it because if I renounced I worried I wouldn't at some point be able to help out my brother and sister should our parents need us. In fact I have gone back once for three months to take care of my grandmother on hospice and again to take care of my mother on hospice. Once was a three month stay and another was one month. I had to rush there twice for family deaths and would have hated not being able to get there fast enough. All of that played a part in keeping my citizenship and it was part of my identity.

I think you are right they are going to require more and even living outside the country is going to be seen more as a situation of having "turned your back" no matter the reason for doing so. It's gotten very hard with the attitude of insulation and one wonders how far that will go in times like these. I'll renounce, but I cannot say I am happy about it at all.
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