Renounce or not? - Page 2

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Renounce or not? - Page 2

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 10th July 2019, 05:07 PM
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Users Flag! Originally from canada. Users Flag! Expat in canada.

Originally Posted by GirlDownunder View Post
1) why should I have to report my information of my own bank account, in the country in which I reside, which is connected to my employer in my country to the "financial crimes" leg of the USA?
Yes, it is a civil war era law. It may have been spiced-up for the modern age, but it began there to stop men from running away to Canada. History, it's called.
You don't have to report anything if you answer "no" to questions about US citizenship. That is impossible in some countries, very possible in others. Enforcement in Canada is extremely lax, banks are only required to ask the question, not validate the answer. Self-certification is sufficient. I expect that Australia isn't too different.

2)The fines are real. Again, have a look at what is happening, especially to Canadians.
Citation please. Are non-compliant Canadians being fined? I think not. You may be remembering the Dewees case. He is a US citizen without Canadian citizenship, so one of a small category of people who are vulnerable to the mutual assistance in collection agreement, and his lawyer made him do a very stupid thing by coming into compliance, at great cost when he was hit with penalties for not properly reporting his business, and unfortunately the Canadian authorities were compelled by treaty to collect on behalf of the IRS. But otherwise, how are Canadians being fined? The IRS has no means to collect from dual citizens with no US assets or income. If there was mass fining of Canadians going on, we'd know about it.

Passionately arguing for or against these details, illegally imposed (no discussion by representatives about FATCA-- it was slipped into the "Hire Bill" and no one read it, btw), will never make it okay. I guess it comes down to what sort of abuse you're willing to abide from your gov't.
Right now, in Canada, it's very easy to deal with FATCA by simply not admitting to US citizenship. I agree that it's not a good situation and the world would be better without this particular law, but it's not exactly causing widespread suffering because most US persons are simply ignoring it, and for those who don't, there are no consequences beyond the reporting (admittedly bad enough) as nobody is being denied banking services or having accounts closed.

US taxation is even less of an issue. There's no reason to bother with compliance for anyone without US financial or family ties, so most don't bother, unless some idiot lawyer or tax accountant scares them into filing US returns with tales of terrible (non-existent) fines if they don't.

Honestly I think one reason renunciation numbers aren't higher is that lots of people have figured out that continued non-compliance is perfectly safe, so why spend the money?

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Old 10th July 2019, 05:24 PM
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Users Flag! Originally from usa. Users Flag! Expat in france.

Originally Posted by GirlDownunder View Post
To "pretend" that the USA/FATCA is "just like other absolutely ridiculous.
No one is saying that the US is "just like other countries" - it is the only First World country with this citizenship based taxation thing. (Eritrea being the only other country that does things that way.)

No "other" country has the means to extort like the USA does. "Do it, or else"-- is their motto now, or:

a 30% withholding to any financial institution who does not "comply". (Resistance is futile, anyone?).
Though if you base it on actual enforcement, the IRS power looks somewhat more limited - especially as underfunded as they are currently. Not sure of whether or not they have invoked that 30% withholding thing against any foreign financial institutions at this point - but apparently that's now the price of foreign financial institutions that want to continue doing business in the US.

No place else is anywhere near what's happening with the USA.

Renunciation IS a tax issue. You either fall on your back and submit to pointless & expensive laws which would be illegal applied to mainland citizens, or you say, "enough".

Not one person I know of who has had to choose the latter, "wanted to"-- they were forced out. To ignore what's happening won't help anyone or anything.
There actually are other reasons to renounce - but as far as being "illegal" as applied to mainland citizens, they'd have to have a second nationality and an appropriate visa in order to remain in the US after renunciation. But that's a technicality.

I know a few folks who were "forced out" because they wanted to take a nationality that would not permit dual citizenship (i.e. usually German or Austrian). Nothing to do with US taxation (though the end of having to file was an added "bonus"). So it's not always "simply" a tax issue.

What I'm hoping to avoid here is for renunciation "enthusiasts" to jump in on every and any discussion of US tax complications for those living overseas, claiming that the "only" solution is to renounce. There are simpler and less expensive alternatives available for those who don't want to go that route (for whatever reasons).

Oh, and we do actually have some discussions here in the Expat Tax section about tax complications for other citizens - UK and Australia particularly.

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