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Strategies for spending over 90/180 days + access to healthcare in post Brexit Spain

7K views 106 replies 22 participants last post by  Juan C 
#1 ·
I retire next week aged 58 and my plans to buy a place and spend 8-9 months a year there are currently on hold until we get some clarity over whether Brexit will actually happen and the form it will take.

However, assuming the worst and it does happen, are there any strategies you can suggest that would allow spending more than 90/180 days and provide access to reasonably priced healthcare. Is there anything I can be doing now to help try and secure these things?

I could probably afford private healthcare but it would probably be expensive due to a pre-existing condition (controlled hypertension).

I would like to spend 3-4 months a year in the UK and would obviously require health cover whilst here. I will keep our house in the UK - would have to as can't get rid of the kids :D

Myself and my wife have good NHS / Teachers pensions and quite a lot of savings / investments.

Thanks for any tips / advice.

R.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
As an EU citizen, you will need to register as a resident in Spain if you wish to be here more than 90 days continuously. More than 182 days in a year and you become a tax resident automatically and Spain taxes you on your worldwide income. Presumably you will not qualify for a S1 so you will need to have private medical insurance with no co-pay and the cost of this may depend on pre-existing conditions.
 
#4 ·
As an EU citizen, you will need to register as a resident in Spain if you wish to be here more than 90 days continuously. More than 182 days in a year and you become a tax resident automatically and Spain taxes you on your worldwide income.
thanks

Would this mean I am taxed on my pension and investment income in the UK and again in Spain?
 
#3 ·
The only way to spend more than 90/180 days here in those circumstances (as a non-EU citizen) would be to secure a residency visa.
If you can move here before Brexit, do it now while you're still EU citizens.

The process for non-EU citizens is more complicated & the financial requirements MUCH higher.
 
#10 ·
Reciprocal tax treaty is concluded with each country separately so has nothing to do with EU membership. So UK/Spain tax treaty should continue to operate post-Brexit. If you become tax resident in Spain and non-resident in UK, you just pay the Spanish income tax. If you are liable to tax in both countries, you effectively pay the higher of the two tax liabilities. Foreign tax liability can be complicated and you should take professional advice first.
 
#12 ·
As you say your retiring next week ( week beginning Monday 28th October to 3rd November ) then you
could hope the British Government leaves the EU with a deal, in which case the Transition period
kicks in where you can still move to Spain and go through getting residence ( as an EU citizen, etc rather than 3rd country citizen ) as your rights would remain unchanged during the Transition period upto 31st December 2020.

All this in order to secure Spanish residency where you can forget the 90/180 days limitations and of course
you can still spend 3-4 months a year in the UK, as the British Expats who follow a Swallow lifestyle
( time in UK and time in Spain ) enjoy already although you would still be dependent on the S1 regime
as regards reciprocal healthcare arrangements between the UK and Spain and must remain a resident
in Spain after transition.

There's no getting around or away from the cost of healthcare insurance and how much you pay
will be determined on what impact your pre-existing conditions come to.
 
#15 ·
you would still be dependent on the S1 regime
as regards reciprocal healthcare arrangements between the UK and Spain and must remain a resident
in Spain after transition.

There's no getting around or away from the cost of healthcare insurance and how much you pay
will be determined on what impact your pre-existing conditions come to.
As the OP is still some years away from UK state retirement age, he would not be entitled to an S1 form even if Brexit were not happening.
 
#13 ·
What can affect is uprating of UK state pension for Spanish residents. Currently EU regulations stipulate your pension should be uprated in line with UK law. Post-Brexit (post-Implementation period to be precise), unless it's in the withdrawal agreement or a special arrangement is made with Spain (Spain is keen but UK less so as things stand), you may not get the annual increase UK-based pensioners get (3.9% from April 2020).
 
#21 ·
Re the double taxation agreement between U.K. and spain.

If tax resident in Spain, with the exception of crown pensions and income from rental in U.K. which are taxable only in U.K. all other income is taxable only in spain. No choice of where one pays !

Even crown pension income must be declared in spain as does rental income. However although not taxable in spain, those incomes are taken into consideration. In my case it results in me starting to pay spanish tax at 29% from the first euro of my other income, U.K. OAP, bank interest, premium bonds winnings ( I wish) etc
 
#23 · (Edited)
If one moves to Spain (makes it their centre of economic activity) they become tax resident immediately. That of course includes persons who come and seek or take work here, or in the case of say a wife and family of a person who works elsewhere who move here. Then the husband (spouse) is deemed to be tax resident, unless in very exceptional circumstances he/she can pursued the tax authorities otherwise. That is so even the spouse may never set foot in Spain.


The 183 rules is subservient to that

If the tax authorities say you are tax resident then you need to prove you’re not (guilty until proven innocent).
 
#27 ·
I retire next week aged 58 and my plans to buy a place and spend 8-9 months a year there are currently on hold until we get some clarity over whether Brexit will actually happen and the form it will take.

However, assuming the worst and it does happen, are there any strategies you can suggest that would allow spending more than 90/180 days and provide access to reasonably priced healthcare. Is there anything I can be doing now to help try and secure these things?

I could probably afford private healthcare but it would probably be expensive due to a pre-existing condition (controlled hypertension).

I would like to spend 3-4 months a year in the UK and would obviously require health cover whilst here. I will keep our house in the UK - would have to as can't get rid of the kids :D

Myself and my wife have good NHS / Teachers pensions and quite a lot of savings / investments.

Thanks for any tips / advice.

R.
There are no 'strategies' for spending more than 90 days in a 180 day period.
If you become a third country national every time you enter and exit an EU country you will have to go through passport control/customs and your passport will be stamped and/or scrutinised. If you break the rules there is a distinct possibility you could be banned from entering for x amount of months or years.
Either you become a resident now before brexit happens or you wait and apply for a visa like other third country nationals do.
 
#28 ·
Quiite right Tigerlillie - why shilly-shally ( sit on the fence ) any longer and go for Spanish residency asap while you still count as an EU-Citizen - you know
it makes sense rather than incur the wrath of 3rd country national rules.

As sure as night follows day - BJ's not going to do you any favours by hanging on.

The only Brit's I know that are dithering, are those Brit's who at the end of the day will always say; well I never wanted to move or retire to Spain anyway.
 
#30 ·
Thanks all.

so it looks like becoming a resident is the only real option but does that not just shift the problem to not being able to stay in the UK for long periods in a post exit world?

Hopefully exiting the EU won't happen but if it does I guess I need to decide where I want to spend most of my time and stick with it - assuming (which seems unknown) I can get Spanish residency during the transition period if I decide on Spain.

R.
 
#33 · (Edited)
Why would you want to spend long periods of time in the UK after becoming resident in Spain ?
Really I see absolutely no problems for you spending a month or two or three in the UK - any longer than that,
then the UK's notoriety for traffic jams and roadworks would drive you up the wall.

Finally don't pin your hopes on any transition period being any longer than until the end of December 2020
in the event of the UK leaving with a deal.
 
#36 ·
Not really answering your question but why 8 or 9 months? If you can limit your visits to around 6 months per year, 2 to 3 months at a time, why not remain UK resident?

Saving & investments have better tax treatment in the UK, you can leave your (spare) UK car in Spain for up to 12 months and you can (currently) use your EHIC card and relatively cheap annual travel insurance to provide health care.

Many people enjoy the ability to visit both the UK and Spain at the optimum times....summer & winter in the UK and spring and autumn in Spain (Spain is Too hot in July & August and bloody cold Jan & Feb, your UK house will be far warmer). Flights are pretty cheap if you can travel light & are not too bothered about dates. We pay around €100 for 2 adults door to door.

Just be thoughtful on the type of property you buy.... lock up & leave, near to airport and manageable. Forget the Fincas/country houses and think about your situation in 10 years time. we have friends that are now trying to sell their Finca to move to an apartment in a village/town. A villa on a decent urbanisation could be a good compromise.

Good luck. :fingerscrossed:
 
#51 ·
Not really answering your question but why 8 or 9 months? If you can limit your visits to around 6 months per year, 2 to 3 months at a time, why not remain UK resident?

Saving & investments have better tax treatment in the UK, you can leave your (spare) UK car in Spain for up to 12 months and you can (currently) use your EHIC card and relatively cheap annual travel insurance to provide health care.

Many people enjoy the ability to visit both the UK and Spain at the optimum times....summer & winter in the UK and spring and autumn in Spain (Spain is Too hot in July & August and bloody cold Jan & Feb, your UK house will be far warmer). Flights are pretty cheap if you can travel light & are not too bothered about dates. We pay around €100 for 2 adults door to door.

Just be thoughtful on the type of property you buy.... lock up & leave, near to airport and manageable. Forget the Fincas/country houses and think about your situation in 10 years time. we have friends that are now trying to sell their Finca to move to an apartment in a village/town. A villa on a decent urbanisation could be a good compromise.

Good luck. :fingerscrossed:
Thanks. That's just what I envisage I may have to do. The main period would be winter where I would like to spend something like Jan-may in Spain and again some time in the Autumn. With a few other weeks here and there I envisage it being around 8 months total in most years. This would obviously contravene any 90/180 regs hence my question on the best way to deal with it and access to healthcare.

I am looking at Villas within an hour of the airport with access to services that we would require. I am not averse to a nice urbanisation.

This is turning out to be a useful and informative thread. thanks everyone. Three days work to go :)
 
#39 ·
Steve.

Albeit that the green cert of residence does not say it, you need to apply now to become permanent. It is not automatic

You need to make the appointment online and when you attend the office you will need to prove your income and full medical cover, in the same way you did five years ago

This might help :-


TO MAKE AN APPOINTMENT WITH THE POLICE FOR NIE, E.U. Citizen registration, etc.

As you go through you will find links to the application forms and the payment, at any bank, form

.• GO TO https://sede.administracionespublicas.gob.es/icpplus/

• PROVINCES AVAILABLE: CHOOSE the province where your are living/ staying

• SECTIONS AVAILABLE IN PROVINCE: OPEN PAGE AND SELECT SECTION REQUIRED

e.g. “policía certificado de residente o no residente” (that includes NIE application)
NOTE there is now a special section for UK citizens which must be chosen that is “Polica-Certificada EU (Exclusivamente para Reina Unido)

• ENTER THE DETAILS OF APPLICANT. if you have an NIE show that, if not then show your passport number

• CHOOSE NATIONAL POLICE STATION FOR APPOINTMENT: The one that covers the area where you live
Motivo o tipo de solicitud de la cita, show reason for requesting appointment

• CHOOSE AN APPOINTMENT, AND THEN CONFIRM. If the office you require us not shown that means there are no appointments available at the moment so please try again later

• You must PRINT A COPY OF THE APPOINTMENT, and take it with you to the police station
You can find info here in english about completing the EX15


http://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consul...E 2018 - TRANSLATED NIE FORM 2018 - GUIDE.pdf
 
#41 ·
Under EU rules you automatically become a permanent resident after five years of continuously living legally in Spain but if you want to swap your A4 green paper for a new credit card size document containing the words "residente con caracter permanente" you will need to make an application and pay the appropriate fee. You do not need to show evidence of income or medical cover, as with a first-time application. You only need to show evidence that you have lived continuously and legally in Spain for five years, which is pretty simple. However, according to the local press this week Madrid has ordered all police stations to stop processing residency applications from Brits. They have a picture of a sign at Benidorm police station advising that all applications must be made via the foreigners´ office in Alicante. Presumably this is because of Brexit and the fact that all Brits will need to replace their residency certificates with a TIE before much longer! Having a card confirming that you are a permanent resident will make the application for a TIE an automatic, no questions asked process. Without one there will be a need to produce a little more paperwork.
 
#52 ·
Thanks for all the information and advice. In answer to my original posting at #38 what are the benefits of being Permanent? and will it make any difference, to save all the hassle, if i don't apply for permanent status? Ive always paid any dues, taxes etc, that have been requested of me.

Steve
 
#53 ·
After Brexit all British residents in Spain will need to apply for a Tarjeta de Identidad de Extranjero, a plastic credit-card size card with your photo and, I think, fingerprint (all non-EU residents have these now). If you already have a residency document saying that you are a permanent resident the TIE will be given to you as a hassle-free swap with no need to produce any other documentation. Without a residence document that says "residente permanente" you may be required to provide proof that you have lived continuously and legally in Spain for the past five years. That´s my understanding of it, at least for Alicante province residents, but no doubt someone will say it´s different in their part of Spain!
 
#54 ·
Good news for the OP today is that he has an extra 3 months from his planned date of retirement
( was it this week ? ) to move to Spain and get into residencia before the next Brexit date of 31st January.

The only downside is fewer and fewer Brit's have faith in HMG and Tory government promises.
 
#67 ·
Of course Gibraltar isn't in EU or Schengen, so any time you spend in Gib won't count towards 90 days allowed in Schengen (but it won't reset the 90-day clock, as explained). As your passport is unlikely to be stamped on entering and leaving Gib (this may change after Brexit), keep other pieces of evidence such as accommodation receipts.
 
#69 ·
The only way to avoid registering as an EU resident in Spain is to reside less than 90 days.

If you rent or buy a home and use it as one, that is your residence. A day trip to Gib or Portugal does not change that.

If, on the other hand you were in Spain for 85 days, then went to Portugal and set up residence there for 85 days, then came back to Spain..... surely not worth the hassle?
 
#74 · (Edited)
The right to stay 90 days in The Schengen area, in 180 days is what may happen if U.K. leave the eu without an agreement.

As stated if as an EU national one moves to spain (makes it their centre of economic activity) they are tax resident immediately.

If they do not move but stay 183 days in a year then they become tax resident .

If they do neither but remain in Spain PERMANENTLY (on holiday) for 90 days they are required to register as an EU citizen but do not become tax resident

Good luck
 
#77 ·
It's perfectly possible for Brits and other EU citizens to spend much longer than 90 days in Spain and not register, because there aren't any checks. Unless you actually commit a serious crime you can't be deported. Thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people have done so.

Once the UK leaves the EU however, Brits won't be protected by the Freedom of Movement principle. They will be regarded as undocumented migrants (what some people call "illegals") if they don't register and get a TIE.
 
#79 ·
You're correct, with no hard borders between Spain and France or Portugal they cannot know when you arrived or departed.

I'm trying to make a different point though; I would like to see something in writing saying the registration rule is more than 90 days per 180 days, rather than 90 days consecutive.
 
#84 · (Edited)
As say xabiaxica , all properties in addition to principle home.

That includes storerooms, garage spaces in community garage, etc.

Those who are tax resident in spain also pay the imputed tax when they make their annual tax declaration, not only in relation to other un-let properties they own in spain but anywhere worldwide. For example un-let property U.K. I pay it (in spain) on a property my wife owns in Asia
 
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