Thai temper

[Farang]

I'm an ex-pat and have been living in Thailand now for two years, I'm married to a Thai woman and seem to get a better understanding of the culture. The only thing that has me baffled sometimes is how often I witness violent response on minor issues such as asking for something different in a restaurant from local Thai people. I have also witnessed my boss get a rock thrown at his car one night and breaking his window before going home, and another Thai colleague getting his car keyed all around. Is this normal? I'm curious to know if there are any other Western or European ex-pats that either lived it or see it more often than none. I asked my wife and she said most Thai's, unless they have a close relationship with a foreigner do not particulary like foreigners, especially ex-pats; any comments?
Cheers!
Farang

[frogblogger]

Originally Posted by Farang

I'm an ex-pat and have been living in Thailand now for two years, I'm married to a Thai woman and seem to get a better understanding of the culture. The only thing that has me baffled sometimes is how often I witness violent response on minor issues such as asking for something different in a restaurant from local Thai people. I have also witnessed my boss get a rock thrown at his car one night and breaking his window before going home, and another Thai colleague getting his car keyed all around. Is this normal? I'm curious to know if there are any other Western or European ex-pats that either lived it or see it more often than none. I asked my wife and she said most Thai's, unless they have a close relationship with a foreigner do not particulary like foreigners, especially ex-pats; any comments?
Cheers!
Farang

Can't say I've come across anything like that. But then I only ask for what's on the menu. If I don't like the look of the menu, I don't go in in the first place!

Never encountered the slightest resentment from any Thais, of any generation, in any situation.

Yes there is a certain national pride, not entirely justified in some respects, but if you know how to work around it there's nothing easier than gaining their acceptance. I do go out of my way to fit in with the culture and traditions. If there's any stereotype at all, Westerners are perceived as unsmiling, boorish, ill-mannered, pushy and arrogant - and unfortunately plenty of visitors, whether tourists or expats who should know better, live up to that image. The key is to concentrate on behaving in a diametrically opposed fashion.

It doesn't bother me to behave in that manner because a) I'm a guest in their country and b) I agree with them that many Westerners are unsmiling, boorish, ill-mannered, pushy and arrogant

[EllieC]

Originally Posted by frogblogger

I agree with them that many Westerners are unsmiling, boorish, ill-mannered, pushy and arrogant

You forgot smelly!! I never experienced anything like that in my 2 years there either. I have heard some stories about thai men getting pretty nationalistic when they drink in mixed farang/thai bars though. Boys will be boys.

[Farang]

Originally Posted by frogblogger

Can't say I've come across anything like that. But then I only ask for what's on the menu. If I don't like the look of the menu, I don't go in in the first place!

Never encountered the slightest resentment from any Thais, of any generation, in any situation.

Yes there is a certain national pride, not entirely justified in some respects, but if you know how to work around it there's nothing easier than gaining their acceptance. I do go out of my way to fit in with the culture and traditions. If there's any stereotype at all, Westerners are perceived as unsmiling, boorish, ill-mannered, pushy and arrogant - and unfortunately plenty of visitors, whether tourists or expats who should know better, live up to that image. The key is to concentrate on behaving in a diametrically opposed fashion.

It doesn't bother me to behave in that manner because a) I'm a guest in their country and b) I agree with them that many Westerners are unsmiling, boorish, ill-mannered, pushy and arrogant

Good one!
I see your point, but doesn't really answer my question, so k I appreciate in thought either way.
I'm in the hospitality industry and perhaps what everit is you're doing in Thailand might be more easy going. I do agree with the stereotype of Western tourist and ex-pats, but being in a percieved 5star environment it's not easy as pie to please a paying guest that puts jobs and money into local pockets and at the same time be sabai sabai. What I'm witnessing is unfair behavior on the part of some Thai's, in that some of us foriegners give alot but much is not appreciated. At least from my side I give money to my staff when they are in need, spend endless hours trainig and teaching.
Effort is always put towards fitting in, as some of us like myself are married to Thai's.
Ok, let me put it more blunt, where I lived in Samui and now in Phuket I can honestly tell you it's like the old American "Wild West", the mafia rules are more respected that the police and often the police are the mafia themselves.
I'm curious to know how long you've been in Thailand and wonder if all the smiles and good nature blocks the other side of places in Thailand. Not to say this is not a beautiful country, I just feel that people here can snap and when they do the consequences are much more grave than I would find back home where I am from.
Appreciate the reply and will enjoy reading your response...

[frogblogger]

Originally Posted by EllieC

You forgot smelly!! I never experienced anything like that in my 2 years there either. I have heard some stories about thai men getting pretty nationalistic when they drink in mixed farang/thai bars though. Boys will be boys.

Oh yes, the 'farang shower' (a quick squirt of deodorant/splash of aftershave) is infamous! In hot climates the length of toenails is a problem in this respect (ask any masseuse). I wrote a short blog partly on the subject of toenails last year...

Yes in some circumstances I agree that certain male sensitivities can be upset, especially in alcohol-lubricated situations. The sterotype mentioned earlier can extend to the impression that Western guys (irrespective of size, shape and age) think they are God's gift to Thai women, and act accordingly. In many cases of course that stereotype is spot on. On the whole the Thai (males) are pretty cool about it, im my experience, although they cover up any simmering resentments pretty well.

Such resentments are more overtly expressed by the likes of the Khmer - previous experience of sitting minding my own business in a Phnom Penh nightclub on a couple of occasions bears this out. I was the only 'barang' in the place however, I always seek out Westerner-free locations as far as I'm able, and this has its attendant risks. Still, even then such situations were easily defused well before reaching the point of no return. Helps when you hardly drink yourself, of course.

Originally Posted by Farang

Good one!
I see your point, but doesn't really answer my question, so k I appreciate in thought either way.
I'm in the hospitality industry and perhaps what everit is you're doing in Thailand might be more easy going. I do agree with the stereotype of Western tourist and ex-pats, but being in a percieved 5star environment it's not easy as pie to please a paying guest that puts jobs and money into local pockets and at the same time be sabai sabai. What I'm witnessing is unfair behavior on the part of some Thai's, in that some of us foriegners give alot but much is not appreciated. At least from my side I give money to my staff when they are in need, spend endless hours trainig and teaching.
Effort is always put towards fitting in, as some of us like myself are married to Thai's.
Ok, let me put it more blunt, where I lived in Samui and now in Phuket I can honestly tell you it's like the old American "Wild West", the mafia rules are more respected that the police and often the police are the mafia themselves.
I'm curious to know how long you've been in Thailand and wonder if all the smiles and good nature blocks the other side of places in Thailand. Not to say this is not a beautiful country, I just feel that people here can snap and when they do the consequences are much more grave than I would find back home where I am from.
Appreciate the reply and will enjoy reading your response...

Full time, just over two years. I'm now a 'part-timer', 7 months in LOS, 5 in France each year (where I'd been an expat for a couple of decades). Back to full-time in Chiang Mai soon. Married to Thai, Thai daughter, as well as three Anglo-French kids.

"Much is not appreciated" you say ... there's the rub. The problem is that we don't always appreciate the same things, it's a fundamental culture clash. 'Incentivisation' is wasted on the average Thai employee as a result. Different motivations in many ways. Offer the guy whose culture has programmed him to live for the moment a performance-related bonus in X months time, and it just doesn't compute.

Plenty of imperfections in Thai society, not least a strong undercurrent of racism and a form of nationalism that can be easily channelled by the unscrupulous. The Thais are very naive in some ways, and easily manipulated.

Yes I agree cronyism, pandering to the rich, corruption etc are rampant. In your line of work it must be very difficult to remain calm at times! Still no matter what the provocation not maintaining equanimity equates to a loss of face, pure and simple. And as a farang, you would only be living up to expectations. Frustrating really because the pressure is on the farang to be twice as Thai as the Thais...

Giving money doesn't earn merit or respect mind you - it's what someone perceived to be in a certain position in the social hierarchy 'just does'. Not giving it when you are expected to earns plenty of usually silent disrespect, of course. Not quite a no-win situation, but close!

I'm still a bit bemused by the description of Thais 'snapping'. My experience is that it takes a lot of provocation to get even close to such a scenario.

Chiang Mai doesn't live up to the reputation of Phuket, Pattaya etc, but the same principles are at work. I just go with the flow. I'm a guest in Thailand, and the negatives imo are more than compensated for by the positives. Not that I could change anything if I wanted to, so rather than bang my head against the proverbial, it's sabai sabai for me ...

Easy for me to say mind you - I don't work any more. Worked my butt off for years, took early retirement. Still from observation alone, it seems like using Western management methods in Thailand is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I've seen similar in France, where US-owned corporations continue to have great difficulties trying to get both French subsidiary employees and suppliers to conform to the American model and work ethic. If it barely works in France, where there are more similarities than dissimilarities between the two cultures, it's hardly surprising that you are encountering problems where there's a much greater gulf between the two ways of life.

Anyway, that's my tuppence worth!

Good luck...

[EllieC]

Now it gets interesting....have been an expat in 3 different cultures - much like you frog blogger (what a name!) my husband who was a senior executive and a superb manager (I was an executive recruiter so saw many bad expat managers!) said management of people has general principals that don't change anywhere. All people want the same things - respect and recognition for achievement. When you boil it down to those 2 things it gets easier. Sure there are cultural sensitivities (like when he worked out a schedule to give all Thai managers 2 consecutive days off per week and they weren't happy with it because their friends weren't off!!!) but when you respect people and you recognize them things fall into place. Simplistic but true. Many farang execs try too hard to bow to cultural sensitivities.

As for the short temper....my personal opinion is that the Thais generally keep their cool as a part of their Buddhist upbringing. Sometimes this has to crack...combine it with a tough economy, people losing their jobs, money worries...snap. It is happening everywhere...have you seen the youtube video of the Hong Kong lady throwing a tantrum in airport. Hilarious....

[frogblogger]

I'm not sure we're saying anything substantively different, EllieC - respect and recognition for achievement I completely agree are key (with some reservations about what represents achievement within a largely Buddhist environment), but the greater the knowledge of, sensitivity to and respect for cultural differences, the more efficiently you'll be able to apply management tactics that are founded on the principles of respect/reward for the individual. The one implies the other, don't you think?

As for bad management that certainly includes trying too hard - but only if your efforts are transparently clumsy and manipulative. Trying hard, per se, isn't a problem. Subtlety, staying one step ahead, is key!

You're certainly right about the rising stresses and strains because of the economic and political situation. Even if the philosophy of getting on with living for now helps the Thais cope, there are limits to how much anyone can take - everyone has a breaking point. Still most Thais are pretty accustomed to hardship, and fatalistic in their approach to life, so they have more reserves of equanimity than most Westerners, I reckon!

[Farang]

Interesting, your comment makes alot of sense, maybe I haven't been here long enought to see what you describe.
All in all I can see how difficult it is to compromise standards. On one end I'm trying to abide to the Thai way, on the other hand trying to please a high paying foriegn market expecting the same service and food quality as one would find back home, quite difficult. This is my third tour in Thailand, once in Samui and twice in Phuket.
I'm no stranger to the Thai way or Thai justice, lucky my wife takes good care of me and when in need I can have a truck full of Thai brothers (which are my family now) to come to my rescue if that were ever the case.
Getting anyone to learn what you know is always a challenge, but yes you are correct the clash of cultures is the evident reason to my dilema.
I won't lie to you, I would love to go back home after being away now for four years, but now that I'm married and in love I simply can't just pack up and go. My task is to do my best and do as you say to fit in and keep my head down until I can bring my wife back to Canada with me.
I appreciate your insight, it really shed more light on things around here.
Regards








Yes in some circumstances I agree that certain male sensitivities can be upset, especially in alcohol-lubricated situations. The sterotype mentioned earlier can extend to the impression that Western guys (irrespective of size, shape and age) think they are God's gift to Thai women, and act accordingly. In many cases of course that stereotype is spot on. On the whole the Thai (males) are pretty cool about it, im my experience, although they cover up any simmering resentments pretty well.

Such resentments are more overtly expressed by the likes of the Khmer - previous experience of sitting minding my own business in a Phnom Penh nightclub on a couple of occasions bears this out. I was the only 'barang' in the place however, I always seek out Westerner-free locations as far as I'm able, and this has its attendant risks. Still, even then such situations were easily defused well before reaching the point of no return. Helps when you hardly drink yourself, of course.



Full time, just over two years. I'm now a 'part-timer', 7 months in LOS, 5 in France each year (where I'd been an expat for a couple of decades). Back to full-time in Chiang Mai soon. Married to Thai, Thai daughter, as well as three Anglo-French kids.

"Much is not appreciated" you say ... there's the rub. The problem is that we don't always appreciate the same things, it's a fundamental culture clash. 'Incentivisation' is wasted on the average Thai employee as a result. Different motivations in many ways. Offer the guy whose culture has programmed him to live for the moment a performance-related bonus in X months time, and it just doesn't compute.

Plenty of imperfections in Thai society, not least a strong undercurrent of racism and a form of nationalism that can be easily channelled by the unscrupulous. The Thais are very naive in some ways, and easily manipulated.

Yes I agree cronyism, pandering to the rich, corruption etc are rampant. In your line of work it must be very difficult to remain calm at times! Still no matter what the provocation not maintaining equanimity equates to a loss of face, pure and simple. And as a farang, you would only be living up to expectations. Frustrating really because the pressure is on the farang to be twice as Thai as the Thais...

Giving money doesn't earn merit or respect mind you - it's what someone perceived to be in a certain position in the social hierarchy 'just does'. Not giving it when you are expected to earns plenty of usually silent disrespect, of course. Not quite a no-win situation, but close!

I'm still a bit bemused by the description of Thais 'snapping'. My experience is that it takes a lot of provocation to get even close to such a scenario.

Chiang Mai doesn't live up to the reputation of Phuket, Pattaya etc, but the same principles are at work. I just go with the flow. I'm a guest in Thailand, and the negatives imo are more than compensated for by the positives. Not that I could change anything if I wanted to, so rather than bang my head against the proverbial, it's sabai sabai for me ...

Easy for me to say mind you - I don't work any more. Worked my butt off for years, took early retirement. Still from observation alone, it seems like using Western management methods in Thailand is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I've seen similar in France, where US-owned corporations continue to have great difficulties trying to get both French subsidiary employees and suppliers to conform to the American model and work ethic. If it barely works in France, where there are more similarities than dissimilarities between the two cultures, it's hardly surprising that you are encountering problems where there's a much greater gulf between the two ways of life.

Anyway, that's my tuppence worth!

Good luck...[/QUOTE]

[Farang]

Ah EllieC,
A well travelled expert, fantastic!
Your comment is a classic text book know it all response to something so evident. I too have worked in other cultures and know the most commen human desire, this applies to Canadians and I assume Europeans, "respect and recognition".
I think Frogblogger made it more clear, it's where you are and how to adapt. Everyone wants respect, the key is to what extent does one go to and realize that no matter how much respect and recognition you give there still exist a certain resentment.
I agree that with a tough economy things are much more difficult and that frustration is building more. Last week all of Laguna went on strike and guest had to take on new lodgings in Patong (about 700people). The Bangkok airport incident was another exampe, but really it only makes things worse.
Our occupancy is lower than last year, resulting in fewer diners and less service charge for local staff. Guest capture is super important and in times like these I would imagine everyone trying harder to wow travellers, it's not the case.
I've been in the hospitality industry now for 17years, all of which spent with respectable companies, and I can tell you having worked around the world it is in everyone's interest to get the guest to return.
Saying that, it is this challenge that me and other hoteliers face today in Phuket and around Thailand, the lack of ownership and care in keeping the customer. Respect is always there, it's their frustrations that result in poor service and bigger attitude making it difficult to service a demanding and competitive industry.
My issues are in that even with the most understanding and gentle way of approaching Thai's sometimes, it's a no win battle to bring them to their full potential without this grey area of resentment that keeps them from accepting global standards of training to help them be better at what they do and keep their property full of paying guest.
I'm checking out - thanks a bundle to the both of you for an interesting forum...









Yes in some circumstances I agree that certain male sensitivities can be upset, especially in alcohol-lubricated situations. The sterotype mentioned earlier can extend to the impression that Western guys (irrespective of size, shape and age) think they are God's gift to Thai women, and act accordingly. In many cases of course that stereotype is spot on. On the whole the Thai (males) are pretty cool about it, im my experience, although they cover up any simmering resentments pretty well.

Such resentments are more overtly expressed by the likes of the Khmer - previous experience of sitting minding my own business in a Phnom Penh nightclub on a couple of occasions bears this out. I was the only 'barang' in the place however, I always seek out Westerner-free locations as far as I'm able, and this has its attendant risks. Still, even then such situations were easily defused well before reaching the point of no return. Helps when you hardly drink yourself, of course.



Full time, just over two years. I'm now a 'part-timer', 7 months in LOS, 5 in France each year (where I'd been an expat for a couple of decades). Back to full-time in Chiang Mai soon. Married to Thai, Thai daughter, as well as three Anglo-French kids.

"Much is not appreciated" you say ... there's the rub. The problem is that we don't always appreciate the same things, it's a fundamental culture clash. 'Incentivisation' is wasted on the average Thai employee as a result. Different motivations in many ways. Offer the guy whose culture has programmed him to live for the moment a performance-related bonus in X months time, and it just doesn't compute.

Plenty of imperfections in Thai society, not least a strong undercurrent of racism and a form of nationalism that can be easily channelled by the unscrupulous. The Thais are very naive in some ways, and easily manipulated.

Yes I agree cronyism, pandering to the rich, corruption etc are rampant. In your line of work it must be very difficult to remain calm at times! Still no matter what the provocation not maintaining equanimity equates to a loss of face, pure and simple. And as a farang, you would only be living up to expectations. Frustrating really because the pressure is on the farang to be twice as Thai as the Thais...

Giving money doesn't earn merit or respect mind you - it's what someone perceived to be in a certain position in the social hierarchy 'just does'. Not giving it when you are expected to earns plenty of usually silent disrespect, of course. Not quite a no-win situation, but close!

I'm still a bit bemused by the description of Thais 'snapping'. My experience is that it takes a lot of provocation to get even close to such a scenario.

Chiang Mai doesn't live up to the reputation of Phuket, Pattaya etc, but the same principles are at work. I just go with the flow. I'm a guest in Thailand, and the negatives imo are more than compensated for by the positives. Not that I could change anything if I wanted to, so rather than bang my head against the proverbial, it's sabai sabai for me ...

Easy for me to say mind you - I don't work any more. Worked my butt off for years, took early retirement. Still from observation alone, it seems like using Western management methods in Thailand is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I've seen similar in France, where US-owned corporations continue to have great difficulties trying to get both French subsidiary employees and suppliers to conform to the American model and work ethic. If it barely works in France, where there are more similarities than dissimilarities between the two cultures, it's hardly surprising that you are encountering problems where there's a much greater gulf between the two ways of life.

Anyway, that's my tuppence worth!

Good luck...[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

[nomad4ever]

For me it all depends as well on the region or location. If there are more foreigners, even the coolest Thais loose their temper easier. One example is Phuket, where I stayed something around 8 months.

There are so many foreigners now, that plenty of Thais are upsets and sometimes don't even suppress their anger with foreigners allegedly taking over their territory. And I'm not even talking about the struggles of the local bar mafia with the Russians. There are plenty of contract killings just between the locals alone, let alone fights with foreigners.

And let's not even talk about Pattaya.

But hey, it's maybe like in Real Estate: Location, location, location.

;-)