How Spain's 15 M movement is redefining politics

[Pesky Wesky]

Exract from the article

Is this a long-term solution to Spain's debt problems? Certainly not. But actions such as these are starting to change the perception and the dynamics between citizens, government regulators and economic interests. Furthermore, they are forcing politicians to reconsider how they take part in the policy-making process – a growing trend here is public officials voluntarily disclosing assets. They are turning into a reality what Harvard scholar Yochai Benkler presciently called in 2006 the "networked public sphere".

Full article here.
How Spain's 15-M movement is redefining politics | Diego Beas | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

[nigele2]

Pesky in Torrejon even the sceptics in my family are beginning to notice the effects of this. Protected flats are now more commonly seen and support is widespread. I like it

It is like the peasants are slowly crumbling the bottom of the walls of the mighty citadel. I wonder if Rajoy has any idea what he is taking on

[mrypg9]

So how do you think this will affect the outcome of next month's elections?
That is what will determine the shape and direction of Spanish politics.
As I have said before, as long as professional politicians run things, engagement with them, imperfect as many are, is the only way to bring about change in a democracy.
I want to see a change as much as anyone but these inchoate movements are not the way to bring it about.
Groups that want to see different final outcomes and whose unifying theme is a desire for 'change' are not going to have an impact on 'real', grubby politics.
They may provoke some discussion among certain sections of the public and that can only be good - but a serious force for change??? No.
In order to do that they need to infiltrate the established parties. And a few well-thought -out policies might help...
It's easy to say what you are against, not so easy to say what you are for.

[nigele2]

good morning Mary

[QUOTE=mrypg9;629485]So how do you think this will affect the outcome of next month's elections?QUOTE]

Protecting flats of unfortunates will have little impact. Basically this is the people ignoring government and taking into their own hands what the government should be addressing. It also illustrates how you can do more than demonstrate, you can [agreed possibly only a small and temporary way] change things.

In reality the next election is irrelevant. It is part of the corrupt system. What is relevant is the building of a new approach to meeting the needs of society. That will take time, be difficult, and may fail - but hell it will be a great ride and millions will be able to tell their grandkids that at least they tried to fight the greed, corruption and selfishness.

And no matter how hopeless it may seem I'm with Dirk Gently on this. Even the flap of a butterfly's wings .............................

[mrypg9]

Hi much-missed NigeL!!
As I see it , the problem is how to break the grip of unelected financiers and speculators (as well as legitimate investors) over government economic policies.
Governments need to borrow for historical reasons -all governments have deficits - and the power of markets to raise interest rates to a crippling level can severely restrict the government's room to manoeuvre.
Wrong wrong wrong.....we all agree on that. I don't think that even the most unaware citizen needs street demos to bring that home to them.
The markets are demanding precisely the sort of economic policies that are leading Europe into recession. Even the IMF has called for less austerity, more growth....a conversion of Damascene proportions.
The EFSF has been set up as a rescue mechanism to bail out troubled peripheral economies such as Greece, ROI and Portugal. Of these Greece is insolvent, the others illiquid -Portugal hovering on the brink of insolvency. A structured default of maybe 50 -60% is inevitable for Greece and will be more costly thye more the rest of the Eurozone procrastinates. But the illiquid nations need a restored, guaranteed cash flow until growth returns to put them back on a stable footing.
What if there were an international lending reserve, a pool of finance from any nation wanting to take part, totally independent of the commercial lending market and at the disposal of states that wanted to simultaneously reduce their deficits and promote growth?
Obviously that initiative wouldn't be supported by doctrinaire right-wing governments committed still to a weak form of laissez-faire,but if the EU can get together to finance a rescue bid then surely it could somehow construct a low interest investment fund dedicated to public and privare sector job creation?
It seems so simple there's bound to be reasons why it can't be done...

[mrypg9]

[quote=nigele2;629538]good morning Mary

Originally Posted by mrypg9

So how do you think this will affect the outcome of next month's elections?QUOTE]



In reality the next election is irrelevant. It is part of the corrupt system. What is relevant is the building of a new approach to meeting the needs of society. That will take time, be difficult, and may fail - but hell it will be a great ride and millions will be able to tell their grandkids that at least they tried to fight the greed, corruption and selfishness.

That is all sadly untrue.
Whether elections are part of a corrupt system or not they take place and elected governments will pass laws and implement policies that will have a great impact on everry one of us, for better or worse. That is a fact which cannot be ignored in serious debate.
What does the phrase 'building a new approach to meeting the needs of society' mean?
Without detail it is a meaningless, value-free statement and could be used by any party of right or left. The PP will say itys intent is to do just that but in their own way. It's waffle, the equivalent of those ghastly mission statements businesses are encouraged to have these days...You know, along the lines of 'Working together for a better Basildon'.
Creating a new society will take time, you are right, but it will be done as has always been the case, by legislation, small-steps achievable politics.
For me failure isn't an option and I can't see how a process that affects the lives of millions can be described as a 'great ride'.
I don't want to have wasted my life on a losing battle. There is no glory in telling your grandchildren that at least you 'tried' to fight greed, corruption etc. That is romanticising failure.
Politics for me is not about romantic gestures. Too much is at stake for that kind of thing. To change the game you play by the rules, win, then do what you want, or, more realistically, what you can, piece by piece.
If you look at the history of democratic states that is how change has occurred. Pensions and sick pay, paid holidays, workers' rights, anti-discrimination law and so much more...all achieved within the system.
The only example I can think of where positive change has emerged from revolutionary circumstances is post-war Germany, at least the Bundesrepublik.
But do we really want a Stunde Nul (zero hour) to kick start our much-needed change?

[Pesky Wesky]

Originally Posted by mrypg9

So how do you think this will affect the outcome of next month's elections?
That is what will determine the shape and direction of Spanish politics.
As I have said before, as long as professional politicians run things, engagement with them, imperfect as many are, is the only way to bring about change in a democracy.
I want to see a change as much as anyone but these inchoate movements are not the way to bring it about.
Groups that want to see different final outcomes and whose unifying theme is a desire for 'change' are not going to have an impact on 'real', grubby politics.
They may provoke some discussion among certain sections of the public and that can only be good - but a serious force for change??? No.
In order to do that they need to infiltrate the established parties. And a few well-thought -out policies might help...
It's easy to say what you are against, not so easy to say what you are for.

In the article it says... (underlining mine)

The next step is to start thinking in terms of outcomes. Not in the traditional electoral sense – it won't change the result of the election, nor should it try to. It needs to redefine goals, metrics and ways to interpret and understand government accountability and political participation. It needs to create a sense of hope among the general public that, alongside the established tired politics of old – which we still need, otherwise Spain would become like Egypt or Tunisia – a new layer of political participation is collectively being woven.

[mrypg9]

Originally Posted by Pesky Wesky

In the article it says... (underlining mine)

Meaningless waffle like that is why, after over forty years, I stopped reading The Guardian.
All hope-speak. Like a sandwich with no meat. But what do you expect from a paper that supported the Lib Dems in 2010? Of course the outcome of the election will matter, especially to lower income families who will be hit even harder if the PP implement more budget-cutting austerity measures.
Concise, achievable plans are what is required and I have yet to read of one.
The power of the market over state borrowing must be broken before any change can be made.
Ideas on the back of a postcard?

And what does this mean in practical terms???

It needs to redefine goals, metrics and ways to interpret and understand government accountability and political participation

Who will do the 'redefining'? What is meant precisely by 'metrics'? How do we need to 'redefine and understand political participation'?
There's far too much empty verbiage and romantic posturing and not enough attention to where we are now and how we can realistically kick start change.
And the fact is that you start with what you have got, i.e. powerful political parties, and work in them to change.
Why? Because representative (not mandated) democracy is the best way found so far in a modern, hi-tech society of receiving and responding to the opinions of such citizens as wish their voices to be heard.
There are too many of us and life is too complex for us all to sit in the market place and deliberate as in Ancient Greece.
There are also very many political opinions to be listened to and reconciled as we live -thankfully -in a pluralist society.

[Pesky Wesky]

Originally Posted by mrypg9

Meaningless waffle like that is why, after over forty years, I stopped reading The Guardian.
All hope-speak. Like a sandwich with no meat. But what do you expect from a paper that supported the Lib Dems in 2010? Of course the outcome of the election will matter, especially to lower income families who will be hit even harder if the PP implement more budget-cutting austerity measures.
Concise, achievable plans are what is required and I have yet to read of one.
The power of the market over state borrowing must be broken before any change can be made.
Ideas on the back of a postcard?

And what does this mean in practical terms???

It needs to redefine goals, metrics and ways to interpret and understand government accountability and political participation

Who will do the 'redefining'? What is meant precisely by 'metrics'? How do we need to 'redefine and understand political participation'?
There's far too much empty verbiage andf romantic posturing and not enough attention to where we are now and how we can realistically kick start change.
And the fact is that you start with whast you have got, political parties, and work in them to change.
Why? Because representative (not mandated) democracy is the best way found so far in a modern, hi-tech society of receiving and responding to the opinions of such citizens as wish their voices to be heard.
There are too many of us and life is too complex for us all to sit in the market place and deliberate as in Ancient Greece.
There are also very many political opinions to be listened to and reconciled as we live -thankfully -in a pluralist society.

Goodness me Mary. It means what it says.
To you it's waffle, to me it's a beginning. You think it's a romantic posture. I can assure you I've never thought of politics or debate as romantic!
You're right, it's not solid, hard hitting or well defined 'cos it's not meant to be. Concise achievable aims are in the process of being formed, but considering that many people know very little about the way we live at the moment, and many people think they don't care, the first thing is to give us the opportunity to understand and then let us decide.
Even without that understanding we know where we are now, all too well. In the sh!t. Some people are asking for a change, and trying to do smth about it. You are of the opinion that change won't come through this movement. Others believe change is on it's way, but you have to think differently, outside of the present system.
And that's where you are now, outside looking in and not understanding.

[nigele2]

Originally Posted by mrypg9

There are too many of us and life is too complex for us all to sit in the market place and deliberate as in Ancient Greece.

But that is exactly what we are doing and only the current failed system sees it as a threat. Now why might that be?

And as for waffle I point you towards PP and PSOE policy