How Spain's 15 M movement is redefining politics

[mrypg9]

Originally Posted by Pesky Wesky

Goodness me Mary. It means what it says.
To you it's waffle, to me it's a beginning. You think it's a romantic posture. I can assure you I've never thought of politics or debate as romantic!
You're right, it's not solid, hard hitting or well defined 'cos it's not meant to be. Concise achievable aims are in the process of being formed, but considering that many people know very little about the way we live at the moment, and many people think they don't care, the first thing is to give us the opportunity to understand and then let us decide.
Even without that understanding we know where we are now, all too well. In the sh!t. Some people are asking for a change, and trying to do smth about it. You are of the opinion that change won't come through this movement. Others believe change is on it's way, but you have to think differently, outside of the present system.
And that's where you are now, outside looking in and not understanding.

I understand very well
Spain needs growth which means jobs which means revenue to put back into quality social services and improved public amenities.
To achieve that growth you need state financial input. Spain's credit rating has been fuerther downgraded so the cost of borrowing has risen.
So....how to finance growth?
That is the key and only issue.
The rest is debating stuff.
The majority are not interested in 'metric' and 'redefing accountability'.
They want jobs and decent wages to feed their families and that can only be achieved through first using our current system, flawed though it admittedly is.
In a year's time we'll see which of us is right -and I mean in the practical not philosophical sense.
What I am really afraid of, here and in the UK, is that all the street protest and so on will be treated as a mere sideshow, political theatre, avoiding the hard truths of where we are, and that in both countriews it will be 'business as usual'.

[mrypg9]

Originally Posted by nigele2

But that is exactly what we are doing and only the current failed system sees it as a threat. Now why might that be?

And as for waffle I point you towards PP and PSOE policy

Yes, I agree with your last sentence. That's why we need to get in and change it.
The current system sees these movements as a nuisance, not a real threat. Despite The Guardian and what some might think, they have scant effect outside the 'thinking classes'.
Wait a year as I said.
The majority of the voting public will tell you what they want.

[baldilocks]

Originally Posted by mrypg9

The majority of the voting public will tell you what they want.

The trouble is the majority of the voting public are not given sufficient information, nor sufficient education, nor sufficient thinking/reasoning power to be able to make a rational decision and see through all the fog and smokescreens that politicians put about. FACTS are what they need and they get precious few of those without some political spiel being attached to them according to the leaning of the person/s imparting those facts.

[mrypg9]

Originally Posted by baldilocks

The trouble is the majority of the voting public are not given sufficient information, nor sufficient education, nor sufficient thinking/reasoning power to be able to make a rational decision and see through all the fog and smokescreens that politicians put about. FACTS are what they need and they get precious few of those without some political spiel being attached to them according to the leaning of the person/s imparting those facts.

I disagree, Baldy. And I can't agree with the view that the majority of people of whatever nationality are stupid. Most people can see very clearly that they are being led up the garden path and they simply disengage from politics, as is of course their right.
There actually very few political or economic facts per se. It's the interpretation that counts, as you say. Politics is value-based.
Just as with the question of the effects of supermarkets, there is with politics almost an information overload. TV, tabloid and broadsheet press....there is plenty of information for those who want to know.
Far too many people perceive that governments are helpless in the face of market pressures and are resigned to issues affecting their lives being decided beyond their national Parliaments. It's apathy, not lack of information, reasoning power or education that keeps people from the ballot box. That and the fact that even in these hard times the working majority are doing reasonably well...interest rates are low, businesses are slashing prices to compete and so on..
I do think that more education is needed but of a type that encourages broad conceptual thinking and imparts deep historical knowledge of how we came to be who we are, where we are and what we are.

[baldilocks]

Originally Posted by mrypg9

I disagree, Baldy. And I can't agree with the view that the majority of people of whatever nationality are stupid. Most people can see very clearly that they are being led up the garden path and they simply disengage from politics, as is of course their right.
There actually very few political or economic facts per se. It's the interpretation that counts, as you say. Politics is value-based.
Just as with the question of the effects of supermarkets, there is with politics almost an information overload. TV, tabloid and broadsheet press....there is plenty of information for those who want to know.
Far too many people perceive that governments are helpless in the face of market pressures and are resigned to issues affecting their lives being decided beyond their national Parliaments. It's apathy, not lack of information, reasoning power or education that keeps people from the ballot box. That and the fact that even in these hard times the working majority are doing reasonably well...interest rates are low, businesses are slashing prices to compete and so on..
I do think that more education is needed but of a type that encourages broad conceptual thinking and imparts deep historical knowledge of how we came to be who we are, where we are and what we are.

Mary, although I like your post, I disagree with your disagreeing. I never said that people were stupid just that they didn't get the FACTS without some form of spin on them. Mirror, Express, Times, Telegraph, Gruniad, M**l readers will all get the same facts but each presented with a different spin which will then be further confused if they watch the television (Beeb, Sky, ITV, CBS, etc.) so it becomes very difficult for the average person to sort the wheat from the spinning chaff and make any really informed choice when it comes to voting. Whom or what, in fact, can they reliably believe?

The situation is no different here in Spain - the PP, PSOE, IU, UPD and all the various nationalist and anti-nationalist parties that make up the Spanish political scene each have their own views and adherents and , as in UK, not one of them will own up to any involvement in the various elements of the present situation not one of the alcaldes, diputados, senadores, etc will hold up his or her hand and say "My cheating the system and lining my own pocket is, in part, responsible for the financial mess my village, town, community, province, country is in; it isn't me, it's the others!" The other parties are responsible, etc...

[nigele2]

Baldilocks very good points IMHO. But Mary also knows that the system is broken. She however believes a bit (or perhaps a lot) of tinkering within will resolve the problem.

Sadly if the solution relies on tinkering within the PSOE it is going to be a very long road before anything gets done. And why after so many opportunities that PSOE have wasted, after so many lies, why should we believe them?

Mary you offer that "Spain needs growth" and that I seriously question. The argument that Spain needs growth so the young can pay tax to pay for an ever growing aging population has been shot down in flames before. It is not a sustainable solution. And Spain is so deep in the mire it would need growth on a German scale to make any difference.

However I do believe working towards community sustainability is a strategy worthy of exploration. And of course M-15 and DRY are the places where such open minded approaches can be discussed. Sadly the current breed of PSOE and PP politicians cannot do that. They have too much to lose. Their snouts have been in the trough. Their thinking is limited. There German minders bark and they whimper (and that is sincerely not a criticism of Germany).


ps My 80 years young MIL has just received a letter from the Spanish government (PSOE) saying that while they agree she should have a mobile alarm she will have to wait until 2013 as they have no budget. Odd how they already know the PP budget plans or could it be just another lie

[baldilocks]

Originally Posted by nigele2

Odd how they already know the PP budget plans or could it be just another lie

Odd how YOU know the results of the election in advance - it's not Florida, you know!

[Pesky Wesky]

Originally Posted by mrypg9

I understand very well
Spain needs growth which means jobs which means revenue to put back into quality social services and improved public amenities.
To achieve that growth you need state financial input. Spain's credit rating has been fuerther downgraded so the cost of borrowing has risen.
So....how to finance growth?
That is the key and only issue.
The rest is debating stuff.
The majority are not interested in 'metric' and 'redefing accountability'.
They want jobs and decent wages to feed their families and that can only be achieved through first using our current system, flawed though it admittedly is.
In a year's time we'll see which of us is right -and I mean in the practical not philosophical sense.
What I am really afraid of, here and in the UK, is that all the street protest and so on will be treated as a mere sideshow, political theatre, avoiding the hard truths of where we are, and that in both countriews it will be 'business as usual'.

Your reply imo reveals exactly what I was saying about not having the concept of 15 M and others clear. Taking your last point first. In a year's time we'll see who is right. About what? Have I, or others said that in a year's time XXX will have happened, changed, revolutionised? Will this movement change any results in the upcoming elections for example. Once again I'll say no, or at least not the change some people are thinking of. The only change might be that even fewer of the PSOE and IU vote as they are very disillusioned, therefore helping the PP even more. In a year smth will have happened or will be starting to happen, but it's not likely to be in mainstream politics, so you'll probably miss it 'cos that's where you seem to be looking.
Spain needs growth, not necessarily where you say it does, but investment is needed. Why can't that be included in
It needs to redefine goals, metrics and ways to interpret and understand government accountability and political participation ?
I can't see that that statement excludes investment or growth. As I said maybe in different areas to those you have named...
BTW when people say, and there have been several of us who have said the same, that many of us are ignorant of the ins and outs of the systems we live under, we're NOT calling people stupid. It's saying the systems are so complex that they are not easily understandable. This complexity makes them flawed and easy to manipulate. If the majority of people, and I believe we are the majority, find these areas imposible to maneuver through they need to be explained in lay terms. Bienvenido a 15M

[Pesky Wesky]

Originally Posted by mrypg9

I disagree, Baldy. And I can't agree with the view that the majority of people of whatever nationality are stupid.

This what is known as getting the wrong end of the stick. See post above

[mrypg9]

On 'Newsnight' yesterday Paxman interviewed Michael Moore who seems to be the self-appointed spokesman for the U.S. branch of this movement. He deftly and surgically exposed the serious flaw at the heart of this movement....it is inchoate and divided in its aims and has no workable plan for bringing about the change we all want. Moore was a maze of contradictions: he stated he wanted an end to capitalism but later said he wanted to see taxes on businesses raised....He deplored the current state of politics and politicians but when asked who would be 'in charge' of the actual day-to-day running of the country he had no answer other than a load of waffle.
Let's clarify:
we are all agreed that the current system is inefficient and unfair. It rewards the few at the expense of the many and elevates private above public good. It encourages and maintains an unacceptable level of inequality and pays scant attention to environmental concerns. Imo there are many other failings but let's concentrate on the above which are surely the most urgent.
But think below the surface and the differences arise.
The Dry and similar movements call for an end to 'capitalism'. I presume they are advocating some form of 'socialism' or even anarchism. But there are very many forms of capitalism, some comparatively benign and which have delivered a better life for most people than any past or present socialist regime has done.
I abhor the current Anglo-Saxon neo-con free market variety which has created our present crisis situation. I want a society served by the market not subservient to the market. But I and the majority of people in Spain and elsewhere want reformed capitalism, not socialism, anarchism, collectivism of any type. We want reform not revolution. So I cannot give unqualified support to a movement which fails to recognise these important distinctions.
The movements rightly complain of the lack of accountability and transparency in the democratic process but have no real scheme for replacing our representative democracy. The sheer size and complexity of modern hi-tech society renders it difficult if not impossible for the average citizen to be in possession of all the information about every facet of the issues which is needed to make a fully informed judgment on most if not all of the complex political and economic questions. Similarly it is impossible to have any kind of representative democracy in a society of tens of millions of electors without some kind of political organisations (aka parties). How could Jose Rodriguez present a programme to the citizens of his home pueblo let alone the region or nation with access to publicity and money?
It must not be forgotten that there are two arms to government: legislative and executive, the latter actually charged with running the state services. These people are a key element in any reform. They must be won over as they can impede any scheme they disapprove of. Think Sir Humphrey....
Nigel says Spain doesn't need growth...but without growth how can we create jobs and put money into the economy and via taxes into public services and welfare systems? Over four million people need work. The private sector cannot provide that so the public sector must and to do that it needs to borrow and that currently at crippling interest rates because of market forces.
It might help if the huge percentage of revenue denied the state via the black economy was actually put to productive use via paying of taxes, iva and so on..
I have as little idea as anyone how to break the hold of the market over national economies. I've made one rather feeble proposal in a previous post. But that is THE key issue and none of these movements has an answer to that.
It must be remembered that these movements are not representative of the millions of citizens. They are a vocal minority. They pose no threat.
But if they were to the consequences could be dreadful.
We are seeing too many similarities to the inter-war years. The result of street protests and disorder then in nearly every country where they occurred as a response to mass unemployment was violent state repression and fascist or communist dictatorship.
I'm not saying that will happen here but it must be considered. We live in a plural society and most people detest disorder of any kind.
So...we agree on the problem but are debating the solution - an armchair version of 15M.
Maybe we can define a programme...
And I'll be Miss Estepona 2012.....