certificate of antiquity

[rewdan]

Hi,

I bought my house in Ibiza around 12 years ago, all of it is legal and is listed on my escitura. However, when I bought it there were the foundations for a small room extension with walls up to ground level but no further. 11 years ago I decided to finish these walls off (unaware I needed a license). I was denounced by a neighbour. The local town hall told me to get an architect to determine if this extension could be legalised. After another year the Architect finished the project and told me it couldn't be legalised. I was then fined 50000euros by the town hall. My solicitor got this reduced to half on appeal. He then advised me to do nothing for 10 years. The town hall never demolishes anything and if nothing happens for 10 years then the building can be legalised. I have lived with a half finished extension for 10 years now and wonder what your thoughts are on the matter. I do not want to sell the house but would like to finish the extension.
The people who ensure my local taxes etc are paid also confirmed this, that they do not demolish anything and after 10 years it can be finished and legalised.
Has anyone any ideas on this ?

[JoCatalunya]

My son had a similar case (he acts as a translator for folk) and he was told (mind this is mainland Spain, Catalunya at that) that in the case of the people he was helping (they had a half built house) that ideally it should have had a roof on it at the time they were told to stop building as this would have helped in their legalisation.
That being said, if the building even if it was foundation level appears on your escritura then especially if no one has told you to demolish it in the 10 years, (here it is 7) then you can in theory legalise it. (by the way if it appears in your escritura then the ajuntament shouldnt have fined you, however, your architect should have checked that out I would have thought).
You could if your application fails at local level apply to Madrid for a decision.

By the way, nice neighbour.

[rewdan]

Sorry, I should have been a bit clearer but didn't want to throw too much info into it at the beginning to keep things simple. The main house is on the escritura, and is listed with it's correct meters and description, as is the pool.
The small half built extension is connected to the pool house. The pool house is also listed but only as a 'pool house', no meters or further description. Considering it has 2 bedrooms, a bathroom, lounge and kitchen this surprises me, it is quite substantial. But as this is where the extension is connected, it is hard to say if it's included as the description of this building is so vague.


I think the neighbour didn't like the fact I was being sneaky, he was a German Architect and wanted to do some work on his own property that had not been allowed (nothing to do with me) but if he had have gone down the 'sneaky' route he would have been ok.
I had chatted with several Ibithincos who assured me that the way to do it in Ibiza was to build it first then go and get the license! Which is why I went down this route and would have been fine if it weren't for my neighbour. He is dead now so at least I haven't got to worry about him denouncing me again.

I also now know that I have far too much constructed area for the amount of land I own, which is why I could never have got permission to build the extension 10 years ago. My Architect would have known this immediately but if he had of told me he wouldn't have been able to charge me the 5000 euros for the whole waste of time project he prepared over the following year.

So with all that behind me and no further fines or denunciers over the last 10 years, I am hoping to go back to the sneaky route and finish the extension, but with extra sneak this time!
About 5 years ago I built a new kitchen on the main house, all at night time with a torch!

[JoCatalunya]

Have you checked Google Earth? This lovely device is what the authorities look at to check if you have added something be it overnight or over the weekend. Now if you are lucky they won't bother updating their view of your part of the island for some time. Hopefully not for a few years.
How much land do you have by the way?
If the metreage isn't mentioned on your escritura, how could they say it is an illegal build unless of coarse they are going on the Google route or from what your neighbour said. Without metreage I wonder if they are using the old 10 square metres of building per 1000 square metres of land.
When my son comes in I will ask him about the doubling up rule, though bear in mind anything I can tell you is likely to be different from Ibiza, but you never know it may help.

Originally Posted by rewdan

About 5 years ago I built a new kitchen on the main house, all at night time with a torch!

Excellent! You Sir, are what we call a highland craftyman...

[rewdan]

I have had a look at Google Earth, who wouldn't. The funny thing about that is when it first came out the pictures were different to the ones you see now and over my house was a small cloud! The only one in the sky, would you believe it. Now they have new pictures and you can see it clearly.
The kitchen I built was on an unused cisterna so the footprint didn't change really. Fingers crossed on that one.
I only have around 6000m of land and have around 350 sqm of house including the pool house plus another 100 sqm of terrace and pool so much too much for the land.
I think it was probably the denuncia that caused the fine and we could have gone to court but if you don't know the system it's hard. If it happens again I will be wiser.
My house is single story, do you think they would notice if I added another floor? All around me are 2 story as is my pool house.

[rewdan]

Originally Posted by Yossa

Excellent! You Sir, are what we call a highland craftyman...

Thanks Yossa
Most would not appreciate the sophistication or art of the 'sneaky ones'

[thrax]

Google Earth is updated regularly and not via satellite as a lot of folk think. The images are taken from light aircraft for most of the Western World. They are updating every two years for a lot of places. Nice work, if you can get it. Don't know where you are in Spain, but down in these parts, if a building has not been threatened with demolishion or demolished within 4 years, then it never will be. I could do with a certificate of antiquity; I am certainly old enough...

[JoCatalunya]

Originally Posted by rewdan

I have had a look at Google Earth, who wouldn't. The funny thing about that is when it first came out the pictures were different to the ones you see now and over my house was a small cloud! The only one in the sky, would you believe it. Now they have new pictures and you can see it clearly.
The kitchen I built was on an unused cisterna so the footprint didn't change really. Fingers crossed on that one.
I only have around 6000m of land and have around 350 sqm of house including the pool house plus another 100 sqm of terrace and pool so much too much for the land.
I think it was probably the denuncia that caused the fine and we could have gone to court but if you don't know the system it's hard. If it happens again I will be wiser.
My house is single story, do you think they would notice if I added another floor? All around me are 2 story as is my pool house.

My son is back and I have just asked him about the doubling up rule, unfortunately this rule only exists as far as he knows if you have far more land than you have against metreage of house. And in your case you are somewhat overbuilt for the amount of land you have.
With regards putting on another floor. Square metreage does not just mean what is at ground level. They include going up. Whilst your neighbours houses are all 2 storey as is your pool house the difficulty as he put it with your adding another floor is, YOU'VE BEEN CAUGHT OUT. Admittedly it was due to your rather wicked neighbour, surely if he had a problem it would have been better or at least more neighbourly for him to have said something to you rather than denuncia you. So as my son put it if you decide to extend upwards you may have to prepare yourself for all kinds of stink being kicked up.
You could of course go for permission, but if your neighbour didnt get it, then perhaps you won't either. If you don't actually need more space the question they are likely to ask is why do you want to go bigger.
With regards Google Earth they seem to be updating it far more often than they used to.
Bummer.

[rewdan]

Thanks for asking your son, I was only thinking of another floor because if you look from the sky it will not have changed, I might try and sneak it one day! They definitely won't give me permission if I ask no matter what. With my nasty neighbour gone, I think I will be able to finish the extension without being caught but the new floor would be a different gear of sneakyness!
Good to know that after 4 years in your area of Spain then you are safe from demolition, thanks thrax, I am in Ibiza.