Is the Pope´s visit worth €14 million?

[gerrit]

I would compare the Church more to a dictatorship with religious undertone, the Christian counterpart of Iran if you wish so. For sure Vatican City as a sovereign state is a theocracy, and in a secular Europe this should in fact not be tolerated.

Back when I was at high school (don't confuse with secondary school , in Belgium high school is a term for non-university post-secondary education) one of the teachers I got along with very well (even to the extent we went for drinks together to chat) was a reverend in the Protestant Church of Belgium (a tiny minority religion as most Belgians are either Roman Catholic or non-religious). Despite the religious gap between us (he was doing masses and even had been a missionary in Africa, while I am Atheist) I highly respected him. He was never the preachy sort of reverend, never tried to push his religion in other people's throat, quite progressive, ...

Afterwards I lived in Ireland for 3 years spread between the Republic and the North. In the North my friends were mixed: some Catholic, some Protestant, some others (Muslim or atheist).

From these experiences, it seems to me that the Protestant church is a lot more open-minded, less oppressive and less dogmatic, and especially more progressive than the Roman Catholic Church. If I were a christian I'd much rather join the Protestant church than the RC church. (but for now I'll stick to atheism)

Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and non-Catholic branches of Christianity usually have no organisation that functions as official rulers of the religion, no hierarchy or let alone a leader (in all other religions, there are more local branches rather than a global organisation and hierarchy with a global leader). Conclusion: the Roman Catholic church is the most oppressive religion out there, and the whole organisational structure goes against everything religion should be about (and that is including Christianity - otherwise other Christian branches would accept the Pope as leader as well rather than reject the Vatican and the Pope like the vast majority of Christian branches do)

[Alcalaina]

Originally Posted by gerrit

From these experiences, it seems to me that the Protestant church is a lot more open-minded, less oppressive and less dogmatic, and especially more progressive than the Roman Catholic Church. If I were a christian I'd much rather join the Protestant church than the RC church. (but for now I'll stick to atheism)

Protestants can be just as oppressive and bigoted - did you ever come across Revd Ian Paisley when you were in Ireland? He and his Loyalist comrades were laregly responsible for the Troubles in Ulster, setting fire to Catholics´ houses to drive them out of mixed areas in an early form of ethnic cleansing. It was the Catholics´appeal for protection that led to British troops going in, before the IRA regrouped to fight back.

And the bun-fight that´s going on now about women bishops and homosexual clergy? Not a lot of openmindedness in evidence there, I´m afraid.

Best to stay Atheist! Too much strife in the world has religion at its roots.

[jimenato]

Originally Posted by Alcalaina

Protestants can be just as oppressive and bigoted - did you ever come across Revd Ian Paisley when you were in Ireland? He and his Loyalist comrades were laregly responsible for the Troubles in Ulster, setting fire to Catholics´ houses to drive them out of mixed areas in an early form of ethnic cleansing. It was the Catholics´appeal for protection that led to British troops going in, before the IRA regrouped to fight back.

And the bun-fight that´s going on now about women bishops and homosexual clergy? Not a lot of openmindedness in evidence there, I´m afraid.

Best to stay Atheist! Too much strife in the world has religion at its roots.

Well, at least they're having the discussion - I don't see much of that happening in the RC church - in fact the repressive, reactionary Anglican bishops who oppose women bishops are deserting to, and being welcomed by the RC's.

[littleredrooster]

I think a lot of ppl.and their families have long memories with regard to the part that the Catholic church and the Pope himself, played in not only backing Franco but in knowingly approving some of the atrocities that occured during the Civil war.
That being said, there was already something of a vendetta taking place in Republican areas long before the war, with the murder of a number Catholic priests.
There are probably still stronger anti Catholic feelings in many parts of Spain, than in much of the mainly Protestant UK.

[MaidenScotland]

Originally Posted by gerrit

I would compare the Church more to a dictatorship with religious undertone, the Christian counterpart of Iran if you wish so. For sure Vatican City as a sovereign state is a theocracy, and in a secular Europe this should in fact not be tolerated.

Back when I was at high school (don't confuse with secondary school , in Belgium high school is a term for non-university post-secondary education) one of the teachers I got along with very well (even to the extent we went for drinks together to chat) was a reverend in the Protestant Church of Belgium (a tiny minority religion as most Belgians are either Roman Catholic or non-religious). Despite the religious gap between us (he was doing masses and even had been a missionary in Africa, while I am Atheist) I highly respected him. He was never the preachy sort of reverend, never tried to push his religion in other people's throat, quite progressive, ...

Afterwards I lived in Ireland for 3 years spread between the Republic and the North. In the North my friends were mixed: some Catholic, some Protestant, some others (Muslim or atheist).

From these experiences, it seems to me that the Protestant church is a lot more open-minded, less oppressive and less dogmatic, and especially more progressive than the Roman Catholic Church. If I were a christian I'd much rather join the Protestant church than the RC church. (but for now I'll stick to atheism)

Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and non-Catholic branches of Christianity usually have no organisation that functions as official rulers of the religion, no hierarchy or let alone a leader (in all other religions, there are more local branches rather than a global organisation and hierarchy with a global leader). Conclusion: the Roman Catholic church is the most oppressive religion out there, and the whole organisational structure goes against everything religion should be about (and that is including Christianity - otherwise other Christian branches would accept the Pope as leader as well rather than reject the Vatican and the Pope like the vast majority of Christian branches do)

Mormons, Church of England/Scotland.. Coptic Christians, Jehovah witnesses

[littleredrooster]

Originally Posted by MaidenScotland

Mormons, Church of England/Scotland.. Coptic Christians, Jehovah witnesses

Dictatorship is a fair description.
From the time of the conquistadors they have always believed that the end justifies the means.
Not so long ago the truth came out about the Omagh bomb,... lo and behold it was a Catholic priest who played a major part, but was protected by both sides in order to prevent serious repercussions.
A friend of mine brought up in a N.I.Catholic village, used to describe to me how the local priest came round the houses on a Monday and gave a good slapping to any kids who had missed church on the Sunday.
He did this in front of the parents, who were always too terrified to do anything about it.
A virtual rule of fear.

[mrypg9]

Originally Posted by Alcalaina

Best to stay Atheist! Too much strife in the world has religion at its roots.

Atheism is a secular religion......it is founded on the belief that there is no deity.
Since the non/existence of a supreme being cannot be proved, agnosticism is the most rational stance, surely?

[Alcalaina]

Originally Posted by littleredrooster

I think a lot of ppl.and their families have long memories with regard to the part that the Catholic church and the Pope himself, played in not only backing Franco but in knowingly approving some of the atrocities that occured during the Civil war.
That being said, there was already something of a vendetta taking place in Republican areas long before the war, with the murder of a number Catholic priests.
There are probably still stronger anti Catholic feelings in many parts of Spain, than in much of the mainly Protestant UK.

Very true - but as I said about a hundred posts ago, there is a big difference between religion on a personal level and the Church ans an establishment.

Which is why the romerias and festivals for the Virgin are so popular here even amongst people who never go to church.

[Joppa]

Originally Posted by mrypg9

Atheism is a secular religion......it is founded on the belief that there is no deity.
Since the non/existence of a supreme being cannot be proved, agnosticism is the most rational stance, surely?

I remember a joke:

Undertaker, looking at a deceased atheist being prepared for the funeral, is heard to say

'All dressed up and nowhere to go!'

[Alcalaina]

Originally Posted by mrypg9

Atheism is a secular religion......it is founded on the belief that there is no deity.
Since the non/existence of a supreme being cannot be proved, agnosticism is the most rational stance, surely?

No it´s not, Atheism is founded on the absence of belief, based on the lack of evidence for the existence of a deity.

Agnosticism is for people who just want to keep their options open. As Pascal said, the cost of being a non-believer and getting it wrong is much higher than vice versa.