deciding which area is best?

[SteveHall]

I apologise profusely if I came across in a way other than that which I would wish which is to give unbiased advice based on many years of expat life. It was most definitely not my intention to upset you. I have scraped too many expats off the road when IMHO many COULD have forseen the problems.

OK, let's see if I can put some meat on the bones

For the first time EVER I wrote last week that UNLESS you have firm contracts or know exactly what you are going to do I would HONESTLY say "Do not come". That said I would never, ever burst anyone's dream. Just go into this with your eyes open,

Valencia - in the CV children will normally be taught in BOTH valenciano and castellano. This puts an added pressure on both the children and the parents. It is "unnatural" in many ways as depending on in which town/suburb etc their friends will NOT speak one of the languages so their exposure is only being taught in a language they will not hear in the street.

The education of expat children in state schools has been the subject of huge debate and the attempt to impose schooling in the different languages has been a HOT issue. There have been sit-ins, demonstrations (10,000 teachers in Valencia just beofre Christmas) I know a lot of the local teachers socially and I can tell you that what I hear about expat schooling is not pretty. In one local school truancy was 55% in the summer term and the teachers just did not care. As Pilar said, "How can I teach 28 children from 12 countries who speak 9 different mother languages and who have the level of Spanish from zero to fluent. If they are in class they talk among themselves, if I ask them why they are talking then they say "Jan is telling me what you said in German" and they disrupt those who do want to learn. I have to talk to the class as if they are all babies and that harms the native speakers too". Pilar is a dedicated teacher and was excited about the promotion from her native Albacete (zero expats) but her English is, to be kind, poor and her accent is awful. Yet, she is meant to be teaching English. She knows how poor it is and she has spoken to the headmaster who speaks even less but he says, "No problems, they are only beginning". He fails to understand that starting off in the wrong direction will make the journey to learning English even more difficult. She also has English children who made her cry one day when they said, "Your accent is xxxx. You should not be teaching us". The schools inspector for Torrevieja (55,000 non-Spaniards in a town of 104,000) famously said, "What crime against humanity have I commited to deserve to work here"!!!!

If you go to(SNIP) you will see pages about education. If you want I will put you in touch with Jane Cronin a teacher and mother of two girls who is seen as the guru of expat edcuation in the CV and Murcia. She is a good friend and can give you much first hand advice.

Denia is a nice enough town. You would be taught in both languages there but it has a sizeable if elderly expat population. As I say it is a bit "in between" with Alicante and Valencia both about an hour away BUT if you have no real idea where you want to go then its probably as good as it gets. It is also IMHO overpriced but with the crisis now MIGHT be a time to pick up a bargain.

Again, I apologise if I upset you. If you want to PM me I'd be happy to talk this through,

Os deseo mucha suerte

Steve

[lshilleto]

Originally Posted by jojo

There are alot of folk who come onto this site and rightly or wrongly assume that cos everything is grim in the UK, Spain is a cheap, happy, easy utopia. I think that people who have been here a long time know the many pitfalls of moving here and dont "pussyfoot" around the issue. Also alot of humour.emotion can be lost by the written word on forums etc - so please dont take it to heart!!! But what is said is true!

Anyway, as for schools and kids, well, I only wish for my daughters sake I'd moved here when she was 8! She's 11 and is having a bad time at school, alot of it of her own making cos she wont try to speak Spanish, she wont try and make friend and is not happy (see my thread).

Definately, the younger they are the easier it is for them to adapt - my daughters problem is that she's hit the self conscious teenage years and I'm not sure what to do with her!!

Jo xx

Hi Jo,
Have just read your thread,which is weird as it was before i got this message!
Anyway,thanks for the reply,i like a bit of honesty & i agree that people take the written word all different ways,but the guy was being a bit mean LOL.
Am so sorry to hear about your daughter,i remember my teenage years being difficult so it must be alot harder for her being in spain,changing shools etc...
I'm not really sure what to suggest really not having been through it myself(YET) but all i can say is that it is probably a mixture of everything for her,school,friends,all rolled up into a little teenage ball of frustration & fear & i can imagine that you are bearing the brunt of it all,but if things are that bad then all you can do is keep talking to her in the hope that she eventually listens,because if she can get through this & stick with the school she will eventually come out the other side a much happier,confident person,& i am sure that she will start making friends soon because once she realises that you are not going to budge on the school matter she will realise that her life at school will be a much nicer place if she tries to fit in,then her school work will improve with it,it might take a while but if its still early days & things are that bad then i'm sure the only way is up!
Good luck!
Kind regards
Lee

[lshilleto]

Originally Posted by SteveHall

I apologise profusely if I came across in a way other than that which I would wish which is to give unbiased advice based on many years of expat life. It was most definitely not my intention to upset you. I have scraped too many expats off the road when IMHO many COULD have forseen the problems.

OK, let's see if I can put some meat on the bones

For the first time EVER I wrote last week that UNLESS you have firm contracts or know exactly what you are going to do I would HONESTLY say "Do not come". That said I would never, ever burst anyone's dream. Just go into this with your eyes open,

Valencia - in the CV children will normally be taught in BOTH valenciano and castellano. This puts an added pressure on both the children and the parents. It is "unnatural" in many ways as depending on in which town/suburb etc their friends will NOT speak one of the languages so their exposure is only being taught in a language they will not hear in the street.

The education of expat children in state schools has been the subject of huge debate and the attempt to impose schooling in the different languages has been a HOT issue. There have been sit-ins, demonstrations (10,000 teachers in Valencia just beofre Christmas) I know a lot of the local teachers socially and I can tell you that what I hear about expat schooling is not pretty. In one local school truancy was 55% in the summer term and the teachers just did not care. As Pilar said, "How can I teach 28 children from 12 countries who speak 9 different mother languages and who have the level of Spanish from zero to fluent. If they are in class they talk among themselves, if I ask them why they are talking then they say "Jan is telling me what you said in German" and they disrupt those who do want to learn. I have to talk to the class as if they are all babies and that harms the native speakers too". Pilar is a dedicated teacher and was excited about the promotion from her native Albacete (zero expats) but her English is, to be kind, poor and her accent is awful. Yet, she is meant to be teaching English. She knows how poor it is and she has spoken to the headmaster who speaks even less but he says, "No problems, they are only beginning". He fails to understand that starting off in the wrong direction will make the journey to learning English even more difficult. She also has English children who made her cry one day when they said, "Your accent is xxxx. You should not be teaching us". The schools inspector for Torrevieja (55,000 non-Spaniards in a town of 104,000) famously said, "What crime against humanity have I commited to deserve to work here"!!!!

If you go to (SNIP) you will see pages about education. If you want I will put you in touch with Jane Cronin a teacher and mother of two girls who is seen as the guru of expat edcuation in the CV and Murcia. She is a good friend and can give you much first hand advice.

Denia is a nice enough town. You would be taught in both languages there but it has a sizeable if elderly expat population. As I say it is a bit "in between" with Alicante and Valencia both about an hour away BUT if you have no real idea where you want to go then its probably as good as it gets. It is also IMHO overpriced but with the crisis now MIGHT be a time to pick up a bargain.

Again, I apologise if I upset you. If you want to PM me I'd be happy to talk this through,

Os deseo mucha suerte

Steve

Hi Steve,
No worries & thankyou so much for getting back to me with this info,
its really helpful.
I have been really worried about this subject & hear so much of the english enrolling their children into spanish schools with no problems but i am very doubtful that this will be the case for our daughter,& with all respect to my partner, he is so insistant on putting our daughter into a spanish school as he wants her to fit in with the spanish that i think he just assumes that it will all fall into place for her,I on the other hand i am not so sure for all the reasons that you just stated,
Dont get me wrong,my partner does realise that there will be problems but thinks it will be worth it in the end,
It is quite refreshing for me to hear all this from you as it confirms my beliefs that i don't think it would be a good idea for our daughter to go straight into a spanish school & have to deal with all the politics of the matter,i said that she would attend spanish school but to be honest i have been having doubts for a while & really need to discuss this further with my partner & will get him to read all that you have said on the subject,
Knowing my daughter like i do i think she needs to be eased in gently,i also want her to have spanish friends & learn the language like we all want to but i dont believe in forcing it upon her & i also don't want to put more pressure on the teachers & schools that are already finding it hard to deal with the situation,i dont think that she would benefit from that at all,
My daughter & i have been taking spanish lessons & she seems to be doing really well,we are also going to carry our lessons on when we arrive in spain as i do believe in the saying "when in rome do as the romans do",
We have put alot of thought into this move & have been planning on it for a while & we do realise that things are not that rosy in spain,but if it does'nt work out for us then we come home,but we have to try as living here is appaling to be honest for alot of reasons so we have nothing to lose,
Thanks again for all your help & advice,let me know your thoughts on international schooling if you would,cheers,
Kind regards
Lee

[lshilleto]

Originally Posted by Stravinsky

Sorry about that, Steve tells it as it is

OK, I live on the CB North. Not so far from Denia. We did an enormous amount of research before we came here. We wanted to live on the Northern CB. We started in Altea and worked our way up. Some places were holiday places, some had too many Brits. Some were overpriced. Denia ticks all three of those boxes. I like to go there (I even like to go to Benidorm) but I wouldn't want to live there

We ended up outside Gandia / Oliva. We chose to live somewhere where we need a car to get anywhere, but because it has a hell of a view.

Depends on exactly what you want, but some of the towns can be very noisy at night. To find a smaller village just outside the towns is ideal, as you have the best of both worlds ..... you do get used to having to drive, and its no big deal .... the price you have to pay I guess!

Oliva / Gandia region has blue flag beaches, plently of national parks, beautiful countryside nearby, and its close to two airports. I dont have problems here with two languages, although I do notice a lot is written around here in valenciano. However its not a problem

Hi there,thanks alot for your info,
We are still not sure where we are headed,we lived in fuengirola before but dont want to go back there,have heard Almeria is really nice & we had our eye on cartengena(think i've spelt that wrong)for a while as we know people who are moving there but we need to have travel about before which we hope to do in june/july,so we will decide then,would like to go somewhere with only one language as to not confuse us too much lol,
Thanks again
Kind regards
Lee

[SteveHall]

Lo que cura .....

Almería is about the only Spanish community that just does NOT "do it" for me. Either miles of plastic sheeting, deserts or expat "colonies". Poor communications to, well, just about anywhere.

Cartagena. great city, close to Murcia airport, history/culture but VERY few expats. I have friends who live there who swear by the place. Fiona has even set up a number of blogs/sites about it. She too has a young son, "Beastlet" who is 100% integrated.
Architecture of Cartagena
sierraminera.net
Restaurants of Cartagena
What´s On in Cartagena and nearby

Sure she will help.


I am very anti international schools except for those who are just "passing through". Some superb ones on the Costa del Sol with unbelievably good results but I hear a lot of complaints from some parents who feel they are focussed on getting great academic results at the damage of all else.

HTH

[lshilleto]

Hi steve,
Yes, we too have heard great things about Cartangena & it looks beautiful,so will def be visiting there on our travels,

Have also heard that about international schooling,am really not sure what to do for best,but i'm sure we will make the best decicion in the end,

I was pregnant with my eldest daughter when we lived in fuengirola,well mijas costa to be exact,we did like it there but have heard that it is not the greatest of places to live now,

Its the two different language thing that is really bothering me,because if we do end up putting Jodie into a spanish state school then we would like to be somewhere with just the one language,

Got to say steve that you are really going out of your way with all the help,thankyou so much.

[SteveHall]

Hi steve,
Yes, we too have heard great things about Cartangena & it looks beautiful,so will def be visiting there on our travels,

**I am sure Fiona will try to meet up with you if you wish.

Have also heard that about international schooling,am really not sure what to do for best,but i'm sure we will make the best decicion in the end,

**So am I

I was pregnant with my eldest daughter when we lived in fuengirola,well mijas costa to be exact,we did like it there but have heard that it is not the greatest of places to live now,

** I do not know who you are speaking to but I have known the area for 30 years and I think the area gets better year by year. I am typing this in Los Boliches, Fuengirola.

Pluses: one language, lots of fellow Brits and expats, great beaches, reasonable prices for long-term rentals (which are readily available), superb transport and good infrastructure/support services. Lots of events - cultural, sporting, art.

Possibly an "easier" (=less difficult!) place to find work.

Minus: a bit "holiday-ville"? N340 and the Autopista are not my favourite roads!

Its the two different language thing that is really bothering me,because if we do end up putting Jodie into a spanish state school then we would like to be somewhere with just the one language,

**The Costa del Sol offers that AND they are totally geared up for expat children and have been for many years - much more so than say Almería or deepest Extremadura.

Got to say steve that you are really going out of your way with all the help,thankyou so much.

**My pleasure - excuse my bluntness for being impartial. I still think it's an appalling time to come but as you say you have nothing to lose I'd rather have nothing to lose here than just about anywhere on earth.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by SteveHall

Lo que cura .....



I am very anti international schools except for those who are just "passing through". Some superb ones on the Costa del Sol with unbelievably good results but I hear a lot of complaints from some parents who feel they are focussed on getting great academic results at the damage of all else.

HTH

I agree to a point!! My son is at a superb interntional school and has come on in leaps and bounds. For him it was the best choice and I have no regrets. At 13 he needed the security of an english speaking education and english kids around him, he's not a brave kid and in my opinion he was too old to be thrown into a state school.

This is gonna sound really awful, but when I was looking around at Spanish state schools - a lot of the ex-pat kids in them seem.... well quite "rough" - I'm being politically correct here!! I sent my daughter to our local state school, which has a few ex-pat kids, but not many

Jo

[SteveHall]

They have to be "quite rough" to survive. A lot of them have parents (often one) who are living on the edge, who can't support their kids and need to take the kids out of school for the day when THEY want to go to the dentist, tráfico or whatever.

As MariCarmen said (teacher friend) "Your daughter is an outsider. So are the other 28 kids in the class". I was translating for some Welsh neighbours and whilst I understood MCs Spanish and what she was trying to say my best efforts at getting the couple from Swansea to understand what she MEANT as well as what she said were pretty much in vain. This reminds me - this was at an "Open Evening" and only 12 of the children's parents bothered to turn up ......much to MCs delight but also frustration. I did wonder why I bothered as they had lived here for four years and could hardly ask for more than a beer and a joint in Spanish but ....................

Their daughter spoke infinitely better Spanish than they did and, of course, knew the Spanish for every sexual act, position or propensity, even if (hopefully!) she did not know what it meant at the age of 10 or 11!

[JAGUAR]

Great that Steve has turned this 'inquisition' into something positive.
I read so many forums where the resident 'expert' harangues and provokes newbies into bowing and scraping before any sensible answers are offered.
I know you've seen it all before Steve, but the newbies haven't and are usually desperate for sensible advice.
Your website and replies are frank and rightly so. Most travellers want to go in with their eyes wide open, but with a true sense of realism.
I'm glad you responded in the positive - sometimes, as in this case, a lot depends on truthful, but not hurtful, replies.