Alcoholism in Spain?

[bob_bob]

Its a problem all over the world and Spain is no different. I'd love to see the data on drinking habbits in the ex pat community...I'd imagine booze consumption would be a lot higher than a UK average for many who retire to the sun.

Don't forget drug use is on the increase in Spain, especially amongst the young and unemployed.

[jojo]

Originally Posted by Alcalaina

But does increasing prices actually cut down on alcohol abuse? Evidence from some Scandinavian countries, which have very high taxes on alcohol would indicate not. Why should "sensible" drinkers (like me ) be penalised because of binge drinkers?

I think cultural change will come from within the peer group, not through government policy. Once it becomes deeply uncool to puke your guts up, things will change.

Tax on things that are bad for us can either act as a deterrent or simply be a way of putting money into the government coffers Either way, its how it is! Sensible drinkers (if there is such a thing) will have to grin and bare it IMO

As for cultural changes, I agree, putting high tax on things doesnt stop it. The problem is deep rooted. You have teenagers and young adults who not only want to be like their mates, they're also dogged with insecurities and confidence issues, which alcohol takes away. As for throwing up, IME thats a badge of honour and the more your throw up, the better the night was (even when they cant remember!!)

And back to the original question. I dont think theres as much binge drinking in spain amongst those who live there, altho the costas during the holdiay season...............???!!!


Jo xxx

[mrypg9]

Originally Posted by Alcalaina

What????

I can't believe you said that.

Why??? Surely it's common sense. If you are short of money you spend on essentials: food, clothing, fuel. Alcohol, cigarettes...all these non-essentials come last if at all.

If you are short of money you have to learn to forgo some things. That's a fact of life. You prioritise. When I was a child I never went without decent clothes, a warm home and good, ample food. There wasn't anything left over from my mother's meagre wages for fags and booze.

When I first joined the Labour Party in North London our MP was Joyce Butler, a good old-fashioned type who believed that drink was the curse of the working-classes. No alcohol was served at our festive gatherings -I admit they were a bit dull. I was brought up with that opinion.....drink and tobacco were luxuries most people had to do without.

When I was teaching I used to get exasperated with parents -usually mothers - who complained at having to pay a couple of £ towards a museum trip but had the inevitable packet of Benson and Hedges clutched in their hands.

It's obvious to me and I would have thought to anyone that if money is tight you spend it on essentials not luxuries (and I would class cigarettes and alcohol as luxuries - they certainly were in most less well-off households when I was a child) and if you have money to spare then and only then do you indulge.

Since when has the ability to drink and smoke been a fundamental human right regardless of whether you have surplus income to spend on such non-essentials

[Solwriter]

Originally Posted by mrypg9

Since when has the ability to drink and smoke been a fundamental human right regardless of whether you have surplus income to spend on such non-essentials

Perhaps it could be a new political ploy.
Allow those with plenty of money to drink and smoke themselves into an early grave and then the have nots take over the world?

But on a more Spanish note...
Drinking wine is much more part of the culture here for all social classes.
And, as buying a cerveza in the local bar will get you a large, free tapas meal, cutting out the cerveza wouldn't really be helpful.

[mrypg9]

Originally Posted by Solwriter

Perhaps it could be a new political ploy.
Allow those with plenty of money to drink and smoke themselves into an early grave and then the have nots take over the world?

But on a more Spanish note...
Drinking wine is much more part of the culture here for all social classes.
And, as buying a cerveza in the local bar will get you a large, free tapas meal, cutting out the cerveza wouldn't really be helpful.

But that is a different topic which isn't related to my point.

And going without isn't a question of 'haves' and 'have nots'. When I said 'the less well-off' that description can apply to many people in many different ways. When I was newly divorced and a single mother I bought a fairly modest terraced house. Paying the mortgage, feeding and clothing myself and my son even with his dad's contribution meant that for a few years I simply couldn't afford alcohol, cigarettes -that helped me stop smoking - or even a holiday apart from a trip to see my mum.

It's about priorities. Less well-off people rioted for bread not booze or Benson and Hedges!!

Would anyone really march for 'the right to drink and smoke' as a fundamental, inalienable human right? Alcohol and tobacco are drugs, albeit our society's drugs of choice and approval.

As for the 'haves' i.e. us being able to drink and smoke ourselves to death.....could it not be said that making cheap booze and fags available in plenty to the less well-off helps quieten them and keep them in their place?

When the less well-off in England began to organise themselves in Trades Unions and the Labour Party, for many people drink was a great evil. I grew up in that atmosphere. 'Respectable' working people didn't go to the pub, never got drunk and the working man only afforded himself the luxury of his 'smoke' when all the essentials had been paid for.

I still retain vestiges of that puritanical outlook. I enjoy a glass of good wine because although Ican now afford it to me it's still a luxury. One that I would forgo if I couldn't afford to pay the rent, heating bills, buy food etc.

If all that's meant by emancipating people from want is to give them the chance to get drunk and smoke no wonder Governments get away with murder. In my view access to quality public space, education, health care and the arts...these are the essentials, not Alcopops, Carlsberg and Benson and Hedges...

[Alcalaina]

Originally Posted by mrypg9

Since when has the ability to drink and smoke been a fundamental human right regardless of whether you have surplus income to spend on such non-essentials

I regard it as a fundamental human right to be able to decide what to spend my own money on.

My nightly glass or two of wine is precious to me, but I can easily live without new clothes, make-up, trips to the hairdressers etc. On the other hand some people regard getting their legs waxed as essential expenditure ...

[mrypg9]

Originally Posted by Alcalaina

I regard it as a fundamental human right to be able to decide what to spend my own money on.

My nightly glass or two of wine is precious to me, but I can easily live without new clothes, make-up, trips to the hairdressers etc. On the other hand some people regard getting their legs waxed as essential expenditure ...

But you aren't in a position where you have through sheer necessity to choose between what is truly essential...food, shelter, clothing, heat...and what you would like to spend your money on.


I'm talking about people who just don't have the luxury of choice. And I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm just saying that's how it is when money is tight. As I said to Solwriter, acceptance of a fact doesn't entail approval.

Now....I could say I don't believe you wrote that first sentence.....I don't think it is or should be a fundamental human right to spend your money on whatever you decide for many reasons. Surely basic family survival needs come first?

Should people be allowed to spend money on personal weaponry? On any kind of anti-social behaviour? Should they be allowed to spend their money on private education to gain advantage in life for their children? Or to go private (in a NHS hospital now thanks to Tory reforms) so as to queue jump?

I wish I had enough spare cash so that OH and I could go to Sicily for a week. We watched a BBC 4 programme about its art and culture and we really want to go there.
But we can't afford it unless we give up something we can't really contemplate giving up...like paying the rent, for example.

I think one of the curses of our society is the 'I want it all and I want it now' culture....bloody free market again

[Pesky Wesky]

Originally Posted by jojo

And back to the original question. I dont think theres as much binge drinking in spain amongst those who live there, altho the costas during the holdiay season...............???!!!
Jo xxx

I don't think binge drinking is reduced to the Costas and the holiday season at all.
There's not just one word or expression for this in Spanish, it depends on the region. One of them is hacer litros. The expression botellón is widely used however, and although it doesn't specifically refer to binge drinking, it does describe groups of young people consuming large amounts of alcohol, with the difference being that a botellón is always outside.
There have been/ are incidents all over Spain - Sevilla, Códoba, Madrid, Salamanca, Vitoria, Valencia... Nowadays some local councils actually give an area over to botellónes, especially in the fiestas, with the idea that if they confine them to one area the aftermath will affect less people. However, in some places they are held in central plazas which are surrounded by residents. Can you imagine what's it's like to be living in a square that every single weekend is filled with hundreds of people until ?? what time in the morning and what it's like to pick your way through bottles, piss, sick and ??? the next morning? That's what used to happen in several places in Madrid. I think the idea's worn itself out a bit now due to the above actions taken by local governments.
I don't know why, but even though there are laws against drinking in the street, where you can buy alcohol and at what time you can buy it, the people who practice botelloning are rarely arrested and, the botellón may well be policed therefore making it a safer form of entertainment for everyone???????

[Solwriter]

Originally Posted by mrypg9

But that is a different topic which isn't related to my point.

And going without isn't a question of 'haves' and 'have nots'. When I said 'the less well-off' that description can apply to many people in many different ways. When I was newly divorced and a single mother I bought a fairly modest terraced house. Paying the mortgage, feeding and clothing myself and my son even with his dad's contribution meant that for a few years I simply couldn't afford alcohol, cigarettes -that helped me stop smoking - or even a holiday apart from a trip to see my mum.

It's about priorities. Less well-off people rioted for bread not booze or Benson and Hedges!!

Would anyone really march for 'the right to drink and smoke' as a fundamental, inalienable human right? Alcohol and tobacco are drugs, albeit our society's drugs of choice and approval.

As for the 'haves' i.e. us being able to drink and smoke ourselves to death.....could it not be said that making cheap booze and fags available in plenty to the less well-off helps quieten them and keep them in their place?

When the less well-off in England began to organise themselves in Trades Unions and the Labour Party, for many people drink was a great evil. I grew up in that atmosphere. 'Respectable' working people didn't go to the pub, never got drunk and the working man only afforded himself the luxury of his 'smoke' when all the essentials had been paid for.

I still retain vestiges of that puritanical outlook. I enjoy a glass of good wine because although Ican now afford it to me it's still a luxury. One that I would forgo if I couldn't afford to pay the rent, heating bills, buy food etc.

If all that's meant by emancipating people from want is to give them the chance to get drunk and smoke no wonder Governments get away with murder. In my view access to quality public space, education, health care and the arts...these are the essentials, not Alcopops, Carlsberg and Benson and Hedges...

But as Alcalaina has said, one person's need is another person's non essential.

Don't get me wrong. I understand your argument completely. But I do not like the idea of anyone deciding for me what is essential and what is not.

You see, once it is decided exactly what people should be buying for their families each week, it is a relatively easy step to telling them they must buy certain foods, buy their children certain clothes, books, etc.
(And what would you describe as 'the arts' These mean different things to different people and is still related to choice and personal preference)

But your argument could take us back to when the poor were not expected to have a choice about anything, simply to do what they were told.

I know this false element of 'choice' is related to the consumer society we find ourselves in and all the horrors that has produced.
But as you have said yourself, there is no going back, only forward.

(and I've just seen your answer to Alcalaina, but I'll carry on and post this anyway )

[Solwriter]

Originally Posted by Pesky Wesky

Can you imagine what's it's like to be living in a square that every single weekend is filled with hundreds of people until ?? what time in the morning and what it's like to pick your way through bottles, piss, sick and ??? the next morning?

Sounds like somewhere I used to live in the UK....
But I really didn't think things were as bad as that in Madrid and other major cities (although I could have guessed, I suppose).
Guess I need to get out more (or not )

Its good to get different points of view on binge drinking from people living in different Spanish communities.
Thanks for the eye opener.