Have you come to Spain in the last year and found work?

[Alcalaina]

Originally Posted by mrypg9

Out of interest and maybe a new topic: what exactly is a tourist town?
Don't you get any tourists in Alcala? From the little Ive 'seen of it passing through it's very pretty.
I guess I was a tourist there...

I would define a tourist town as a place whose economy depends largely on tourism, where there are shops, bars and restaurants specifically catering for visitors.

Alcalá is pretty from a distance, nestling like a pile of white sugar-lumps in the mountains. I don't know how many people make the detour off the A381 to take a closer look. The main reason people come here is to shoot the wildlife in the Parque Natural. We get a few birdwatchers during the migration periods, and cyclists and bikers who stop over at the hostal on their way up to the Sierras.

We used to have a tourist information office but it closed a few years ago. There's a sanctuary a few miles away which attracts a lot of visitors for the romería in September, but that's about it.

The council have started a "tourism committee", or rather a sort of focus group, which I am on because I run an English language blog about the town. After six months they have finally agreed to put up some signs pointing to the castle and the church.

[anles]

Originally Posted by Pesky Wesky

It's a shame you felt under attack. Some people express their opinions more forcebly than others and it looks like you ran into a couple of rules.
However, you did make a remark about not wanting to be on the Costas and wanting to be in Spain...
What follows is not directed at you personally.

It seems there are still a fair few people who think that Spain is like X and Spain isn't like Y. Parts of Spain are warm year round, parts get snow, parts are 4 hours from the beach and parts have the beach on the doorstep. There are parts that are desert and parts that are like the green hills of Wales. There are parts that have huge immigrant populations, but are those populations Brits, Germans, Scandinavians, Moroccons or Somalians?
It's a huge, diverse country and all of it, although the native population might disagree, although there are more immigrants than Spaniards, is part of
Spain

BUT
The topic of this thread is immigrants and work, so

As you say, there are people who think that if you go to the shops, doctor's, chemist's, etc. and can get by with English alone it's a less Spanish environment than in a village where no one speaks English. The perception that certain areas are Little Britain, Little Germany, etc. but that is as valid a description a the one whereby someone insists it's equally Spanish or equally Spain. In fact, I doubt many Spaniards are worried by this as it's their concept, too. The same as nationalists who say Cataluña is not Spain; it's an opinion I don't agree with, but it's their opinion. I have never lived in an area where you could get by in any other language than Spanish, but I must admit when I first met someone from somewhere in Alicante who had lived there for nine years and could speak no Spanish I was not only shocked but a little disgusted! Now, I am much more tolerant. I realise that I am not the only one who has all the answers and that my way may not be the only way and in fact, I may be a little mistaken in some of the answers. However, I do think that it's their loss because interaction with the people around you is one of the most important and enjoyable aspects of every day life. I have now become part of an exchange group where people get together to practise Spanish and English, and now French, which is a huge success because people are free to do as they wish, some just come for the social event and some get huge satisfaction from practising a new language but every person's input is equally valid

[owdoggy]

Everyone is banging on about “change” with the influx of immigrants but exactly how much has changed? Yes, there’s different languages spoken but that’s about it as far as I can see.

Here, there’s definitely “more” of things because of more money being in the local economy but the farmers still farm, the hunters still hunt, the goatherds still wander past, the thieves still steal (may they rot in hell) and bar owners, although finding it hard in these difficult times, are still there but actual change? ……. I’m not so sure.

Oh aye …… I’ve just remembered what the topic was about so just to have you all lining up to have a pop at me (as if you would) I can say that I’ve been offered (quite a lot of) work here and turned it down…… soy jubilado y feliz.

And no, we’re not rich, indeed we’re having to be a bit careful at the moment but to us happiness is everything ……if you ain’t got happiness you ain’t got nowt.


Doggy

[anles]

Originally Posted by mrypg9

The reason this forum is so successful is that it is neither bland nor full of downright insulting invective, unlike other forums, one or two of which have closed down through lack of interest.
When people post opinions or comments I disagree with I shall say so. They are free to reply in kind.
Some people post informative, interesting stuff which is thought-provoking. Some people post illiterate uninformed drivel.
The mixture works.
And frankly, if people post something I find insulting, patronising, or downright stupid, I will say so in terms which the moderators accept as reasonable.
I expect to receive the same treatment. Words don't hurt me or most other sensible people.
Are we all so tender sensitive souls that we take offence when our opinions, whether daft or sound, are criticised? Do we really want a sanitised, lets-all-agree-incase-someone-takes-offence forum?
I have been called a a***Hole and told to f*** off by an Australian 'gentleman' - the Mods missed that.
I am not such a shrinking violet that I had to sit in a darkened room with sal volatile to get over it.

I suppose where we differ is in our concept of successful. For me, a successful forum is one where people who join, wish to stay. And I believe words can be very harmful, which is why there are laws against libel, slander, mental cruelty, etc. In most cases, if I consider a post is illiterate, uninformed drivel or just downright stupid, I just ignore it as it's not worth my time to reply, but maybe I will make an exception as neither am I a shrinking violet. Your previous post was quite revealing as to how much this "real Spain" affects you but you should just take this as it is, a bit of fun to relieve the boredom. Not only have you felt the need to discuss the problem with your Spanish friends (I'm quite sure mine would have no interest in what a bunch of foreigners think is real Spain) but you have had time to consult in Mijas, San Pedro, Estepona and Marbella! And that from someone who has admitted to having limited Spanish, I'm impressed. I'm sorry that this has caused them concern, I would have thought that the fact that one in three have no job and half the youths don't either would have made this matter seem quite irrelevant. They should look at it more light-heartedly, a bit like the post in a previous thread called "you know you have lived in Spain when..." Seeing things through other people's eyes can be enlightening but it can just be plain amusing. I am also very impressed at their knowledge of Britain. Sadly, I left the UK when I was 7 and two of my big sorrows are I can't recognise British accents like I can Spanish and Latin American accents and that I only know Wolverhampton, and that I would probably not recognise today. I can pintpoint on a map large cities and I have heard of Blackpool as I remember my uncle bringing me some rock from there and I had heard of Bournemouth but not Folkstone, which they not only know but can even identify them either as tourist areas or places with large immigrant population. Me quito el sombrero ante ellos.

[Pesky Wesky]

Originally Posted by anles

As you say, there are people who think that if you go to the shops, doctor's, chemist's, etc. and can get by with English alone it's a less Spanish environment than in a village where no one speaks English. The perception that certain areas are Little Britain, Little Germany, etc. but that is as valid a description a the one whereby someone insists it's equally Spanish or equally Spain. In fact, I doubt many Spaniards are worried by this as it's their concept, too. The same as nationalists who say Cataluña is not Spain; it's an opinion I don't agree with, but it's their opinion. I have never lived in an area where you could get by in any other language than Spanish, but I must admit when I first met someone from somewhere in Alicante who had lived there for nine years and could speak no Spanish I was not only shocked but a little disgusted! Now, I am much more tolerant. I realise that I am not the only one who has all the answers and that my way may not be the only way and in fact, I may be a little mistaken in some of the answers. However, I do think that it's their loss because interaction with the people around you is one of the most important and enjoyable aspects of every day life. I have now become part of an exchange group where people get together to practise Spanish and English, and now French, which is a huge success because people are free to do as they wish, some just come for the social event and some get huge satisfaction from practising a new language but every person's input is equally valid

Yes, as you say there are parts that are like little Britain/ Germany etc, just as there are parts of Birmingham or London or Manchester etc (that you wouldn't have seen as you left a while ago) that are completely given over to the Indians or immigrants from Bangledesh or Pakistan - the people that you see, the shops - everything except the red brick buildings.

I too used to think it was terrible that people who came to Spain wanted to live in places like I've described above. These people who are not interested in learning the language, only interested in living a British life in the sun. Hopefully I've become more tolerant, thanks in great measure to this forum. I still have some reservations however.

You say that In fact, I doubt many Spaniards are worried by this as it's their concept, too by which I think you mean the Spaniards don't mind calling Little Britain areas Spain? I'm not so sure of that. If they're making money out of someone they probably don't care. As soon as they perceive the job market changing and the crisis closing in, immigrants become scapegoats. It happens everywhere in the world.

Might as well take this thread completely off course and ask you what has prompted you to get more involved with English again?

[Pesky Wesky]

Originally Posted by anles

I suppose where we differ is in our concept of successful. For me, a successful forum is one where people who join, wish to stay. And I believe words can be very harmful, which is why there are laws against libel, slander, mental cruelty, etc. In most cases, if I consider a post is illiterate, uninformed drivel or just downright stupid, I just ignore it as it's not worth my time to reply, but maybe I will make an exception as neither am I a shrinking violet. Your previous post was quite revealing as to how much this "real Spain" affects you but you should just take this as it is, a bit of fun to relieve the boredom. Not only have you felt the need to discuss the problem with your Spanish friends (I'm quite sure mine would have no interest in what a bunch of foreigners think is real Spain) but you have had time to consult in Mijas, San Pedro, Estepona and Marbella! And that from someone who has admitted to having limited Spanish, I'm impressed. I'm sorry that this has caused them concern, I would have thought that the fact that one in three have no job and half the youths don't either would have made this matter seem quite irrelevant. They should look at it more light-heartedly, a bit like the post in a previous thread called "you know you have lived in Spain when..." Seeing things through other people's eyes can be enlightening but it can just be plain amusing. I am also very impressed at their knowledge of Britain. Sadly, I left the UK when I was 7 and two of my big sorrows are I can't recognise British accents like I can Spanish and Latin American accents and that I only know Wolverhampton, and that I would probably not recognise today. I can pintpoint on a map large cities and I have heard of Blackpool as I remember my uncle bringing me some rock from there and I had heard of Bournemouth but not Folkstone, which they not only know but can even identify them either as tourist areas or places with large immigrant population. Me quito el sombrero ante ellos.

I think a successful forum is one where people feel they can contribute, exchange thoughts, listen and be listened too. Of course it's better if new people stay and join the group, but sometimes people are not suited to forum life in as much as they can't follow the etiquette for what ever reason (they are rude or they want free advertising for example) or they want something that is not provided like people telling them there's always good weather in Spain or they are just not in the right place.

I do agree with you though that words are harmful, and in some ways the written word more than the spoken. I do think Mary's post was harsh. I also know that the Real Spain issue is important to her, which neither you nor robinjgraham knew, and neither should you.

Finally, I think what image foreigners have of Spain is interesting to the Spanish. Why wouldn't it be? Especially in these times when we need people to come and visit Spain and speak well of the country. A good look at yourself through the eyes of others "can be very enlightening"

[Pesky Wesky]

Originally Posted by owdoggy

Everyone is banging on about “change” with the influx of immigrants but exactly how much has changed? Yes, there’s different languages spoken but that’s about it as far as I can see.

Here, there’s definitely “more” of things because of more money being in the local economy but the farmers still farm, the hunters still hunt, the goatherds still wander past, the thieves still steal (may they rot in hell) and bar owners, although finding it hard in these difficult times, are still there but actual change? ……. I’m not so sure.

Oh aye …… I’ve just remembered what the topic was about so just to have you all lining up to have a pop at me (as if you would) I can say that I’ve been offered (quite a lot of) work here and turned it down…… soy jubilado y feliz.

And no, we’re not rich, indeed we’re having to be a bit careful at the moment but to us happiness is everything ……if you ain’t got happiness you ain’t got nowt.


Doggy

I think we can only talk about the areas we know, but there are areas in Spain that have been completely changed due to foreign immigration because of the sheer volume of building that's gone on to accomodate all those Brits who want to live in the sun. In some places along the coast people can't, for example, hunt anymore 'cos rabbits can't do a lot of burrowing under concrete.
In other areas there are thousands of muslim immigrants. They are usually happy to occupy existing buildings, but their influence is felt in other ways - dress, food shops, (not) participation in local festivals.

[brocher]

My daughter came to Spain last year, only because she was offered a good job, in her field, salary similar to UK for her age and experience.

At the end of her studies and training, ready for a "new adventure" - no ties, nothing to lose if it hadn't worked out.

[bob_bob]

In the past we had the likes of Bob Hope, Jonny Cash, Steve Jobs, now they are all gone, no Hope, no Cash and no Jobs

[anles]

Originally Posted by Pesky Wesky

Yes, as you say there are parts that are like little Britain/ Germany etc, just as there are parts of Birmingham or London or Manchester etc (that you wouldn't have seen as you left a while ago) that are completely given over to the Indians or immigrants from Bangledesh or Pakistan - the people that you see, the shops - everything except the red brick buildings.

I too used to think it was terrible that people who came to Spain wanted to live in places like I've described above. These people who are not interested in learning the language, only interested in living a British life in the sun. Hopefully I've become more tolerant, thanks in great measure to this forum. I still have some reservations however.

You say that In fact, I doubt many Spaniards are worried by this as it's their concept, too by which I think you mean the Spaniards don't mind calling Little Britain areas Spain? I'm not so sure of that. If they're making money out of someone they probably don't care. As soon as they perceive the job market changing and the crisis closing in, immigrants become scapegoats. It happens everywhere in the world.

Might as well take this thread completely off course and ask you what has prompted you to get more involved with English again?

Maybe my opinion on that has been coloured by the area where I have lived most of my life: Galicia. Although I did live for three years in what was then an unknown village in Burgos which has lately become famous due to its unusual names. In fact, much as I loved living there this oddity was paramount in my wishing to leave before my daughter was born!! Everyone was quite excited by her impending arrival and they were determined she be named Olimpia as she was born in 1992 and her dad was being posted to Salou during the Olympic Games. Gallegos have emigrated everywhere, even to the moon... and wherever they have been in any they have created associations and kept up their culture, in effect creating a Galicia Pequena in many parts. The first time I heard the term little England was from a Spaniard who was very amused by it.
In essence my life has been Spanish, or Galician, although I still felt proud to be English, not the correct term either as I'm British, half English, half Welsh, but I feel English in many aspects. People like myself can grow up with identity issues my British friends consider me Spanish as do friends I have of other nationalities, but for most of the people who have known me since I was a child, I'm "La inglesa" except for my closest friends who just accept me as myself and don't think about nationalities. When I started to work in my last job, I met people from many places, but mostly Brits, and I have made some wonderful English speaking friends. I learnt many things about the UK, some that I had been more or less aware of but couldn't believe and I have learned to appreciate my life here more. But on the other hand I have also discovered new things made in UK which I think are wonderful and rediscovered others. Now my children are older I have more time. I have always thought being part of a community and society is vital, but I have found new ways. I run a second hand market every second Sunday of the month which is a local adaptation of Car Boot Sales and I help run the intercambio group because I have found out that there are things I can share which are greatly enjoyed without it being detrimental to the local traditions and culture.