SA Haters

[Darko]

Originally Posted by Zimtony

Darko

Firstly, I left Zim in 1982, a part of the brain drain that occurred. I moved to Johannesburg and then on to Cape Town, before deciding that there was a "big picture" to life and I moved here to Spain in 2001. No need to try and convince myself that I have made the correct decision! Life is safe, healthy not too bad financially, stable, I don't lose any sleep at night if my kids want to stay out in town with friends and I only have to put up with boy racer Spaniards - no Zola Budds trying to force there way into the traffic!

Without getting into a long p*****g competition about who said what in previous posts, all I would confirm is this:
- I would be genuinly delighted if South Africa proves to be the one exception that proves the African rule on failed states. (I still have business interests in South Africa and contribute both in terms of providing employment and in paying taxes.)
- People who who have fairly recently moved to South Africa should be sensible, realistic and truthful about the state of affairs out there, both to themselves and to others who may not have made that final step yet. (I very nearly said fateful step - Freudian slip!)
There may always be exremes in terms of opnions, from both "SA Haters" (not your term!) and "SA Virgins" (my term): However, what cannot be denied are the official figures that prove that South Africa is one of the most violent countries in terms of personal crime in the entire world, it has a rampant HIV problem, there is a huge exodus of talented, skilled and qualified people, being replaced by an influx of mostly unskilled people and that the political framework allows for huge corruption and influence. (Now I am not suggesting that Sr Zapatero here in Spain is an angel, or that Gordon Brown is some tpe of Saint, But Jacob Zuma? Hello!!!!)

Perhaps it can't yet be called fact that SA is heading toward another failed African state. However, when trying to take a view on future outcomes, you can only base it on history, current indicators and how those two devils line up. Unfortunately, the indicators are that South Africa is on the same slope. (Ek is jammer tot enige Afrikaaners wat hierdie post gelees het; die woord "slope" is nie 'bedoel soos 'n ledig nie!)

Of course time wil tell and perception is the only reality. If you are convinced that SA is safe, a great place to bring up kids, no major political problems and not going down the drain, then hey, that is your reality! Me, I know too many people who have been through this same situation in Africa, from Zambia, Mozambique, Zimababwe to ignore historical facts.
You know, when us lot from (the then) Rhodeisa first moved to SOuth Africa in the 80's, our nickname from the South Africvans was "whenwee's" coz all we talked about was "when was in Rhodesia..." now we are called the "Herewee's" as in, "here we go again!!"

Looks like I contradicted myself again and wrote an essay!

Genuinly, good luck in your new life in SA. I honestly hope that things work out as you visualise (another almost Freudian slip by typing fantasize!). Me, I've been there, got the TShirt, read the book, done the service, seen the crime first hand (got the battle scars to prove), lost friends, seen lives shattered and actually don't want the aggro.

BTW, been there long? Where are you living? Where on Mud Island where you from?

These are fair points you raise Zimtony. Which is why I NEVER insult or direct anger towards those that have left / leave SA. I know many that have left for the very reasons you cite. I can fully understand this and I empathise with you, and them.

BTW, I am not disillusional about SA. I critiocise more than I care to mention here. I do however criticize it where it serves the purpose. SA could quickly turn one way or the other. I simply choose not to base my opinion on @what ifs@. You correctly say that we only have history to go on. Well, since 1994 history has taught us that the predictions by doomsayers were false - so far. So whilst history in other countries may prove otherwise, post-democratic history in SA proves the doomsayer to be incorrect.

IMHO, Crime is the only, but major issue in this country. Zuma?? Yip, don't like the dancing, singing and corrupt guy much. But he's here, now lets see.

Reality?? This is simple...reality is reality. It is what is factually happening or has happened. Reality is not what might happen based on what transpired in Zambia or wherever in the 70's. It may become reality...but also may not.

Official figures would be correct...I have never denied this. SA is a violent country in terms of personal crime. Always has been.

This huge exodus you mention....I can conclusively say it is not that huge anymore. I work with VERY highly skilled people, 10% of which are European foreign nationals with credentials up to their ears. I can't deny that there was a huge exodus, and that there is still a trickle - but at the moment, an almost equal trickle coming back.

I do envy the lives of people who can sleep well at night abroad. But I've been there myself. Sleep pretty well now here too...in my "Fort Knox".

For me life is simple....happiness exists when you have people to share it with, and for me, people are the many close friends and family back here in SA. I slept very well at night in the UK....but was I as happy as I am now in the more dangerous SA?? Nope.

This is a subjective matter anyway, which is why I always say "to each their own". Trying to change someones values in life is a futile thing, no matter how much the "SA Hater" tries with their future "facts" based on nothing but a guess.

Lived in the UK for 4 yrs, been back 3.

Thanks for the "sincere" well wishes.

[Daxk]

Good Post,Darko

[Unseer]

Great post actually.

[Zimtony]

Ditto! Good post, great balance!

And ,my good wishes, are most difintely sincere!

[Halo]

I just cannot see the balance.... Only a few statements of fact. If crime is the only thing you are able to see that has deteriorated since 1994 I want a pair of your rose coloured spectacles.

One cannot compare Zambia/Zim to SA due to the demographics so lets drop that....... What I can see is :

A failing infrastructure - While SA won't become a bared wasteland due to its resources and vested interests it will slowly drift to a Nigerian type existance where the multinationals prop up the governments keeping the country ticking over.

I hope I am wrong and somehow SA can jump 500 years in a generation but I somehow doubt it. Soon people will tire of waiting for land.

Most people I know that are still there have it tough compared to those I know around the globe.

Good luck is all I can say.

[Darko]

Originally Posted by Halo

I just cannot see the balance.... Only a few statements of fact. If crime is the only thing you are able to see that has deteriorated since 1994 I want a pair of your rose coloured spectacles.

One cannot compare Zambia/Zim to SA due to the demographics so lets drop that....... What I can see is :

A failing infrastructure - While SA won't become a bared wasteland due to its resources and vested interests it will slowly drift to a Nigerian type existance where the multinationals prop up the governments keeping the country ticking over.

I hope I am wrong and somehow SA can jump 500 years in a generation but I somehow doubt it. Soon people will tire of waiting for land.

Most people I know that are still there have it tough compared to those I know around the globe.

Good luck is all I can say.

Halo,

Seems you already have some sort of tinted shades on - judging by ypur pic!

Failing infrastructure? Care to elaborate?

MOST people that have left, have left because of crime (not all, but most). hence, crime MUST be the major push factor. This is an opinion based on statistical research conducted by various bodies - not just something I conjured up all by myself. I never heard of anyone leaving SA because there was a pothole in the road where they live. Hell, if potholes (i.e. infrastructure) was the major push factor, Ireland would have no residents!

[Daxk]

Darko, (As you raised Ireland) I agree that no-one left/is leaving SA because of a pothole in the road.
But then the Irish are also less likely to riot because of it.
Lets look at SA 's infrastructure,in comparison to other 3rd World Countries its pretty good and had it been maintained it would have been better.

Eskom is still rationing Electricity and will need to do so for at least 5 years.

Water Quality is becoming a problem as is quantity due to failure to control illegal waste disposal ,Lack of Maintenance at the Sewerage works is creating additional hazards.

Health is on the point of collapse for those who cannot afford Private medical care.

The Education Department themselves point out that the failure and drop-out rate is too high

The Roads in SA are becoming a problem.
Now agreed,again,none of these are going to drive people out, but all together,they affect the morale of those who cannot leave ,if you add in the endemic corruption , failue of bureacracy(sp) attitude of those in power then it is drifting towards failed State status.

I also agree SA could go either way, but what makes a success or failure are the people and their rulers and their morale and actions.

[Halo]

Originally Posted by Darko

Halo,

Seems you already have some sort of tinted shades on - judging by ypur pic!

Failing infrastructure? Care to elaborate?

MOST people that have left, have left because of crime (not all, but most). hence, crime MUST be the major push factor. This is an opinion based on statistical research conducted by various bodies - not just something I conjured up all by myself. I never heard of anyone leaving SA because there was a pothole in the road where they live. Hell, if potholes (i.e. infrastructure) was the major push factor, Ireland would have no residents!

Yup, but I want the rose tinted ones........

That is so but its not the only reason. (here are a few others)
1. Rand worth nothing anywhere
2. Can't move funds
3. BEE / AA
4. Lets talk power stations.... Where are they? (All those new house will need juice)
5. Public health care is sub-standard at best.
6. Skills gap

PS Its not just crime -> Its the violent crime and the hate - I can deal with my Plasma being stolen but being shot with the missus raped is just not cricket.

One has to think of your children and your childrens children... Take a risk assessment, you will find SA gets a E-.

[Darko]

Originally Posted by Halo

Yup, but I want the rose tinted ones........

That is so but its not the only reason. (here are a few others)
1. Rand worth nothing anywhere
2. Can't move funds
3. BEE / AA
4. Lets talk power stations.... Where are they? (All those new house will need juice)
5. Public health care is sub-standard at best.
6. Skills gap

PS Its not just crime -> Its the violent crime and the hate - I can deal with my Plasma being stolen but being shot with the missus raped is just not cricket.

One has to think of your children and your childrens children... Take a risk assessment, you will find SA gets a E-.

1. I think you'll find the rand has been improving recently. The effects of a weak rand are felt more when you do leave, not when you earn and spend ZAR. The ZAR has been weak for over a decade now, nothing new. The weakness of our currency against USD; GBP is not unique to SA - If you look hard enough (not even all that hard) you'll find other currencies which are just as weak and even moreso in some instances.
2. Not being able to move funds - not sure why you reckon this is a push factor? care to explain? Foreign Exchange Control are a legacy policy - nothing new here either.
3. Yip, this is a pain in the arse...I will be honest. It is probably second to crime in terms of being a push factor.
4. They're around - I haven't experienced a power failure iin over a year now. there may be issues going forward, then again there may not be.
5. Public Healthcare - definitely an issue....for sure. But those than can afford emigration usually had private healthcare. an issue, but not as big an issue to the "would be" emigrant as crime.
6. Skills gap - why would this push someone out of a country?

I do however agree, that it's the violence of the crime that is most concerning.

[Halo]

Originally Posted by Darko

1. I think you'll find the rand has been improving recently. The effects of a weak rand are felt more when you do leave, not when you earn and spend ZAR. The ZAR has been weak for over a decade now, nothing new. The weakness of our currency against USD; GBP is not unique to SA - If you look hard enough (not even all that hard) you'll find other currencies which are just as weak and even moreso in some instances.
2. Not being able to move funds - not sure why you reckon this is a push factor? care to explain? Foreign Exchange Control are a legacy policy - nothing new here either.
3. Yip, this is a pain in the arse...I will be honest. It is probably second to crime in terms of being a push factor.
4. They're around - I haven't experienced a power failure iin over a year now. there may be issues going forward, then again there may not be.
5. Public Healthcare - definitely an issue....for sure. But those than can afford emigration usually had private healthcare. an issue, but not as big an issue to the "would be" emigrant as crime.
6. Skills gap - why would this push someone out of a country?

I do however agree, that it's the violence of the crime that is most concerning.

1. Want to put some money on that not being the case by the end of the year? Look in 1983 it was R2=£1 (say no more)
2. Correct, when one removes a virus, why replace it with another?
3. And it will only get worse when people jockey for the $$ when the money tap dries up
4. Great news... Those poor technicians. It takes 7-12 years to build power stations.... you already load shed - Please do some research. Its a slow process and SA still have many skilled people who live there which prolongs the inevitable.
5. I would beg to differ, many who leave (plumbers/carpet fitters/electricians) who I know in Australia could not afford this in SA.
6. When you boss has IQ of 75 it really makes life rewarding.

Concerning is an understatement of note.