SA Haters

[Darko]

Originally Posted by Daxk

Gee Darko, I'm certainly not giving advice.
And I certainly dont speak for anyone else except me.

There's a very fast way to shut me up, Darko.
Prove me wrong.
In addition, most predictions are based on historical fact.

I am amazed(and grateful) that the ZAR is doing as well as it is.
When was that small bounce when the News hit that Trevor Manuel had resigned?
Within my lifetime the rand was at 2 to the £, I also recall 21 to the £ within my childs lifetime.
What was the rand when we had that little bout of Xenophobia?
Are you saying that the current good performance is going to continue ad infinitum?

Again I am extremely grateful that there was as little violence at this election.
94,2001 and 2005 elections all had Zulu's and Xhosa's killing each other and a very high murder rate, so on probability theory, Mbeki/Zuma/Cope/IFP and all the shenanigans with Malema and Ancyl,there was a strong possibility.
or are you saying that tribal factionalism in SA politics is past?

My point on this thread is that all the little titles and comments such as your
"I think the reason we see such individuals with negative eyes, is because of their relentless knack to will / wish SA into doom - and somehow it just doesn't happen in reality. They are simply bored in my view. "
Is simply trying to negate the horrible truth that SA is failing because those in power are corrupt and the electorate ignorant.

Tell me, do you also see Archbishop Desmond Tutu's recent comments as willing SA into doom?

What would it take to turn SA into a typical failed African State?

Daxk,

"are yo saying that tribal factionalism in SA politics is past?@ - Nope, just stating that the many predictions by the "SA haters" of bloodhsed were false....probability theory or not.


Regarding the ZAR - historical fact serves very little purpose when predicting where the ZAR will be - as is so blatantly obvious right now. It may stay the same, it may go down, it may go up. But so many "SA Haters" could see it worsening.

Re your last paragraph: Negate the truth huh? The truth is, peeps like you and other "SA haters" (not my chosen term by the way) only see truth in one direction - this is sad, and my couple of examples above prove "your" truths to be, well, untruthful. A case of pot and kettle.

The fact that those in power are quite appalling characters is undeniable - but their actions do not necessarily make or break a country...and ALL its people.

Desmond Tutu's ciomments are focussed and constructive. the difference between his and the traditional "SA Haters" is the subject matter of criticism. The "SA hater" will wish / will / predict doom on SA on all fronts - ZAR, economy, crime, business, health, education, 2010WC etc etc - get my drift?

What would it take? Oh, I dunno - for starters, a violent election which is totally non-fair and free? Perhaps a declining spend on infrastructure? Perhaps when the rest of the world sees us as unfit to host any major and potentially high risk sporting events? Who knows...you tell me. What does the law of probability say?

[Daxk]

Darko, Historical fact can predict how FDI reacts to certain stimuli.
with the exception of Malawi , which Hastings Banda ruled with an iron fist,and Botswana which was in essence a private fiefdom for Anglo and deBeers all the other Sub saharan African Countries that are Multi-tribal have failed.

They have all followed a similar path.
Flight of Skills (which has happened in SA)
Free and fair Elections for the first 10 years then a change of the constitution to increase Presidential term.
Mbeki tried this last year, Zuma only has to bribe two floor crossers to get the 2/3rds to change the Constitution.
And the Constitution has already been changed to create racial Bias.
the new Pornography Bill which effectively re-creates a censorship Board has a vague little addendum "Deemed to be not in the public interest" and everything has to be passed by a Govt Official.
Thats Censorship awaiting which is another big milestone in the Failed States.
The Govt is constantly trying to Influence the Judiciary and has shown that it is above the Constitutional Court, the highest Court in the land.
The Collapse of the rule of law and Policing is another huge Indicator.
Infrastructure is creaking and collapsing iro Education,Health,Water and Power.
The Govt has failed in its promise of Employment,Housing Delivery and SA is now a nett importer of food.
The populace have already shown that when a train is delayed they will burn the station down.
When School or University fees are demanded, they riot and burn.
Kyaletsha today is a prime example.

Your question about elections are moot.
SA has a population of 48 million, 37% or 17 million are over 65(3%) or too young too vote.
of the remaining 30 million only 21 million have registered to vote and only 70 odd% voted.
thats 15 million.
The unemployed youth total 15 million.
in the broad definition of unemployment, 17 million are too old or too young to work.
of the remaining 30 million the SARS only has 13 million as a tax base.

who are already paying high tax rates.
The Arms deal is'nt paid for in full yet. the second phase now kicks in.
The Sports events particularly the stadia and Gautrain are being funded by International loans.
Which have to be paid.
The two million visitors to WC2010 is now down to hopefully 450,000,
When the Stadia and Gautrain are complete, what jobs will those Construction workers do then?
How will the Municipalities pay for the upkeep of those stadia?

And there are 32 Million unemployed of which 15 million youngsters want money and cars and the good life.
which they cant have.

So the fact that SA is Josh Grobans favourite place does'nt give me a warm feeling.
Now tell me which good news is going to change all of that?
You cannot change a country from the middle its either top down or bottom up.
the middle just wants to be left alone.












I repeat my question, why did the markets react to Trevor Manuels resignation when Mbeki was ousted?

[Darko]

Originally Posted by Daxk

Darko, Historical fact can predict how FDI reacts to certain stimuli.
with the exception of Malawi , which Hastings Banda ruled with an iron fist,and Botswana which was in essence a private fiefdom for Anglo and deBeers all the other Sub saharan African Countries that are Multi-tribal have failed.

They have all followed a similar path.
Flight of Skills (which has happened in SA)
Free and fair Elections for the first 10 years then a change of the constitution to increase Presidential term.
Mbeki tried this last year, Zuma only has to bribe two floor crossers to get the 2/3rds to change the Constitution.
And the Constitution has already been changed to create racial Bias.
the new Pornography Bill which effectively re-creates a censorship Board has a vague little addendum "Deemed to be not in the public interest" and everything has to be passed by a Govt Official.
Thats Censorship awaiting which is another big milestone in the Failed States.
The Govt is constantly trying to Influence the Judiciary and has shown that it is above the Constitutional Court, the highest Court in the land.
The Collapse of the rule of law and Policing is another huge Indicator.
Infrastructure is creaking and collapsing iro Education,Health,Water and Power.
The Govt has failed in its promise of Employment,Housing Delivery and SA is now a nett importer of food.
The populace have already shown that when a train is delayed they will burn the station down.
When School or University fees are demanded, they riot and burn.
Kyaletsha today is a prime example.

Your question about elections are moot.
SA has a population of 48 million, 37% or 17 million are over 65(3%) or too young too vote.
of the remaining 30 million only 21 million have registered to vote and only 70 odd% voted.
thats 15 million.
The unemployed youth total 15 million.
in the broad definition of unemployment, 17 million are too old or too young to work.
of the remaining 30 million the SARS only has 13 million as a tax base.

who are already paying high tax rates.
The Arms deal is'nt paid for in full yet. the second phase now kicks in.
The Sports events particularly the stadia and Gautrain are being funded by International loans.
Which have to be paid.
The two million visitors to WC2010 is now down to hopefully 450,000,
When the Stadia and Gautrain are complete, what jobs will those Construction workers do then?
How will the Municipalities pay for the upkeep of those stadia?

And there are 32 Million unemployed of which 15 million youngsters want money and cars and the good life.
which they cant have.

So the fact that SA is Josh Grobans favourite place does'nt give me a warm feeling.
Now tell me which good news is going to change all of that?
You cannot change a country from the middle its either top down or bottom up.
the middle just wants to be left alone.












I repeat my question, why did the markets react to Trevor Manuels resignation when Mbeki was ousted?

Simple truth is, without writing an essay, that your and other @SA haters@ predictions / @truths@ have been conclusively proven to be incorrect again. No need to go further than that or to digress from the topic.

Thye markets reacted as Trevor is competent and his resignation is a scary thought - initially at least.

[Daxk]

This thread ,which I started, is about people assuming that Criticism of the SA Govt is tantamount to hating SA.

Even with writing an essay, you cannot dispute my facts,so you choose to ignore them.

[Darko]

Originally Posted by Daxk

This thread ,which I started, is about people assuming that Criticism of the SA Govt is tantamount to hating SA.

Even with writing an essay, you cannot dispute my facts,so you choose to ignore them.

I chose to ignore that long essay as it was boring, and it was a futile attempt to digress from the topic as i had conclusively proven that your "truths" were nothing of the sort. They were more like wishful predictions that fell flat on its face.

Bloodshed during elections - nothing
SWC2010 being given to another country due to safety concerns - nope
Rand reaching 30:1 - nope
Another failed African State - nope.

I could go on, but that may attract a further essay.

Oh pls, criticizing the government is fine - but these 3 simple examples listed above has NOTHING to do with criticizing government. Criticizing government should be based on current or past governmental actions - not wishful predictions. Try pull the other one.

[Daxk]

Originally Posted by Darko

I chose to ignore that long essay as it was boring, and it was a futile attempt to digress from the topic as i had conclusively proven that your "truths" were nothing of the sort. They were more like wishful predictions that fell flat on its face.

Bloodshed during elections - nothing
SWC2010 being given to another country due to safety concerns - nope
Rand reaching 30:1 - nope
Another failed African State - nope.I could go on, but that may attract a further essay.

Oh pls, criticizing the government is fine - but these 3 simple examples listed above has NOTHING to do with criticizing government. Criticizing government should be based on current or past governmental actions - not wishful predictions. Try pull the other one.

Yet.
The Failed african states tended to be peaceful and Democratic for at least two Presidential terms, SA has managed to stumble through 16 years.
Zim is a prime case in point.

[Zimtony]

Darko

Again you choose to ignore the big picture and focus on a micro view on whcih to base your insults, impart your knowledge and share your wisdom. To clear a view points:

None of us who post here are SA haters. We rather are individuals who have personal experience of being born/growing up/living in/doing business with/emigrating from South Africa. (You can delete or tick the applicable!) As stated before, it is not possible to hate a country and none of the posters here have professed to hate South Africa.
Clearly South Africa may be the Holy Grail for certain expatriates. I have no problem with that at all and I wish all of you all the luck in the world.

My personal desire to post is to provide some sort of balance to those SA newbies who now wish to portray South Africa as some sort of Garden of Eden. Sure, it is one of the most beautiful places on the Earth. Yes, so long as you have some money, you can lead a fairly decent quality of life. However, if you do not want to bring your children up in an atmosphere of fear; should you not want to live behind a security system that is admired by Fort Knox; if the simple things in life are precious to you (just going for a walk down the road/ along the beachfront/strolling through a town centre) then, generally, life in South Africa is not for you. Any suggestion to the contrary is, at best misguided and at worst, a blatent lie by those who are trying to fool others whilst also fooling themselves or trying to justify a bad mistake to themselves and others!

The micro comments about South Africa right now (world cup 2010, no bloodshed at these last elections,ZAR at 12 to 1, not 30) are just not relevant.
Consider this big picture:
In 1980 Zimbabwe gained independence.
Rober Mugabe was seen by the western world (mostly the UK) as some kind of saviour able to transcend the black/white problems of the day.
At this time, the country exported more food to the rest of Africa than it used itself.
Up to this independence date, the country had suffered appaling sanctions being placed on it from the western world, primarily the UK.
It was largely self sufficient, except for oil.
It had one of the most enviable infrastructures in Africa. (Electricity, water, roads, health system, schools, apprenticeship schemes and had a very small per capita unemplyment rate)
At the time of Independence the Zimbabwe Dollar was woth 1.47 US Dollars! (I would get RSI if I tried to type in all the zeros that would be applicable today if I tried to now calculate how many Zim dollars I could buy with 1 US dollar. And by the time you had read this, it would have changed exponentially again.)
It had trouble free elections.
Now remember, at this point in time, many people also had a rose tinted view about how great it was going to be in this new, exciting, independent country.

What thoughts on Zimbabwe today? Any comments? See any parallels? Any other real life examples? I know a lot of people that moved to Zimbabwe during this period, looking for the new land of milk and honey. I have a rather sneaking feeling that not too many are there today! And consider the brain drain on qualified people leaving Zimbabwe, that were replaced by relatively lower skilled/lower experienced people, that is being equalled in South Africa today. Don't believe me? Just google South Africans in Austalia/UK/Ireland/USA etc and see for yourself.

Unfortunately, it is without doubt that South Africa is heading the same way. The path may be slightly different, due to other factors, (communications, different tribal dynamics, strong diverse financial base in relation to the rest of the continent), but the destination will be the same. Another failed African state needing bailing out by the rest of the world.

Like many other posters here, in the words of Clarke Gable, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" about those of you who have moved there and are trying to make it work. Truly, I wish you all the luck in the world and I would absolutely love to have to eat my hat after being proved wrong. However, I do believe that it is my birthright to be able to share a little more "perspective" with those that are considering a move on the basis of a one-sided view given by posters such as yourself.

Good luck, hope that you really do well and that South Africa can survive. Me, I prefer to be able to sleep at night, knowing my 17 year old daughter can drive herself home safely, that the dog barking probably means it has seen a cat and that if I wake up to a strange noise in the house, the icemaker has just dropped another load in the freezer.

[Darko]

Originally Posted by Zimtony

Darko

Again you choose to ignore the big picture and focus on a micro view on whcih to base your insults, impart your knowledge and share your wisdom. To clear a view points:

None of us who post here are SA haters. We rather are individuals who have personal experience of being born/growing up/living in/doing business with/emigrating from South Africa. (You can delete or tick the applicable!) As stated before, it is not possible to hate a country and none of the posters here have professed to hate South Africa.
Clearly South Africa may be the Holy Grail for certain expatriates. I have no problem with that at all and I wish all of you all the luck in the world.

My personal desire to post is to provide some sort of balance to those SA newbies who now wish to portray South Africa as some sort of Garden of Eden. Sure, it is one of the most beautiful places on the Earth. Yes, so long as you have some money, you can lead a fairly decent quality of life. However, if you do not want to bring your children up in an atmosphere of fear; should you not want to live behind a security system that is admired by Fort Knox; if the simple things in life are precious to you (just going for a walk down the road/ along the beachfront/strolling through a town centre) then, generally, life in South Africa is not for you. Any suggestion to the contrary is, at best misguided and at worst, a blatent lie by those who are trying to fool others whilst also fooling themselves or trying to justify a bad mistake to themselves and others!

The micro comments about South Africa right now (world cup 2010, no bloodshed at these last elections,ZAR at 12 to 1, not 30) are just not relevant.
Consider this big picture:
In 1980 Zimbabwe gained independence.
Rober Mugabe was seen by the western world (mostly the UK) as some kind of saviour able to transcend the black/white problems of the day.
At this time, the country exported more food to the rest of Africa than it used itself.
Up to this independence date, the country had suffered appaling sanctions being placed on it from the western world, primarily the UK.
It was largely self sufficient, except for oil.
It had one of the most enviable infrastructures in Africa. (Electricity, water, roads, health system, schools, apprenticeship schemes and had a very small per capita unemplyment rate)
At the time of Independence the Zimbabwe Dollar was woth 1.47 US Dollars! (I would get RSI if I tried to type in all the zeros that would be applicable today if I tried to now calculate how many Zim dollars I could buy with 1 US dollar. And by the time you had read this, it would have changed exponentially again.)
It had trouble free elections.
Now remember, at this point in time, many people also had a rose tinted view about how great it was going to be in this new, exciting, independent country.

What thoughts on Zimbabwe today? Any comments? See any parallels? Any other real life examples? I know a lot of people that moved to Zimbabwe during this period, looking for the new land of milk and honey. I have a rather sneaking feeling that not too many are there today! And consider the brain drain on qualified people leaving Zimbabwe, that were replaced by relatively lower skilled/lower experienced people, that is being equalled in South Africa today. Don't believe me? Just google South Africans in Austalia/UK/Ireland/USA etc and see for yourself.

Unfortunately, it is without doubt that South Africa is heading the same way. The path may be slightly different, due to other factors, (communications, different tribal dynamics, strong diverse financial base in relation to the rest of the continent), but the destination will be the same. Another failed African state needing bailing out by the rest of the world.

Like many other posters here, in the words of Clarke Gable, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" about those of you who have moved there and are trying to make it work. Truly, I wish you all the luck in the world and I would absolutely love to have to eat my hat after being proved wrong. However, I do believe that it is my birthright to be able to share a little more "perspective" with those that are considering a move on the basis of a one-sided view given by posters such as yourself.

Good luck, hope that you really do well and that South Africa can survive. Me, I prefer to be able to sleep at night, knowing my 17 year old daughter can drive herself home safely, that the dog barking probably means it has seen a cat and that if I wake up to a strange noise in the house, the icemaker has just dropped another load in the freezer.

Aaaah, Zimtony...pls tell me where I have insulted anyone? Hypersensitivity is something that does not often marry well to contributions on open fora/forums.

1. "SA Haters" is a term I quoted from the thread originator. As I stated in previous posts, it is not my term of choice to begin with. This statement alone should take care of most of your post.

2. Of course my "micro" comments are relevant. These are the very comments (and again, I said before, they are only a few examples of such comments) used by "SA Haters" to dispell negativity about the country. But I guess when it doesn't swing in the favour of the "SA hater" it becomes irrelevant. I understand. Amazing how relevant it does become when it suites the person posting isn't it?

3. Thanks for the history lesson on Zimbabwe. But until SA becomes Zimbabwe, i suggest we hold onto the "I told you so's". It has been proven time and time again that predictions of doom have been unfounded - and if not, doom will arrive in an indeterminate time...right? Fact and Prediction are 2 different things. The parallels...well, there will always be parallels. We are in post-colonial Africa. The beginnings of independence will alawys look the same. The brain drain in Zimbabwe is nowhere near comparable to that of South Africa's. But no time now to get into the obviousness of this.

4. Heading towards another failed African state huh? Is this another fact? I'm sorry, but it can't be called fact until sucvh time that it happens. Like the fact that SA was surely headed for civil war and bloodshed in 1994. Liek SA's currency would be worthless by COB 21008 etc etc etc. Nothing but personal opinion and predictions....no fact whatsoever.

5. Ditto on Clarke Gable about those that moved abroad...to each their own. Except that you contradict yourself. You state you don't give a damn, and then that you truly wish us luck....which is it?

6. Pls tell me a single one-sided post I have given to convince anyone to move back to SA. I wait in anticipation. You can't just shoot from the hip without substantiation - even though that is the modus operandi of the "SA Hater" My opinions are based on fact. I am not in denial about crime and all those other lovely things. Your facts are based on predictions...many of which have been proven wrong over...and over again.

7. Glad you can finally sleep well at night. You should've left Zim long ago and come to SA. We sleep quite well here. And please....don't try to convince yourself that you are happy where you are. I'm sure you made the right decision.

[Darko]

Originally Posted by Zimtony

Darko

Again you choose to ignore the big picture and focus on a micro view on whcih to base your insults, impart your knowledge and share your wisdom. To clear a view points:

None of us who post here are SA haters. We rather are individuals who have personal experience of being born/growing up/living in/doing business with/emigrating from South Africa. (You can delete or tick the applicable!) As stated before, it is not possible to hate a country and none of the posters here have professed to hate South Africa.
Clearly South Africa may be the Holy Grail for certain expatriates. I have no problem with that at all and I wish all of you all the luck in the world.

My personal desire to post is to provide some sort of balance to those SA newbies who now wish to portray South Africa as some sort of Garden of Eden. Sure, it is one of the most beautiful places on the Earth. Yes, so long as you have some money, you can lead a fairly decent quality of life. However, if you do not want to bring your children up in an atmosphere of fear; should you not want to live behind a security system that is admired by Fort Knox; if the simple things in life are precious to you (just going for a walk down the road/ along the beachfront/strolling through a town centre) then, generally, life in South Africa is not for you. Any suggestion to the contrary is, at best misguided and at worst, a blatent lie by those who are trying to fool others whilst also fooling themselves or trying to justify a bad mistake to themselves and others!

The micro comments about South Africa right now (world cup 2010, no bloodshed at these last elections,ZAR at 12 to 1, not 30) are just not relevant.
Consider this big picture:
In 1980 Zimbabwe gained independence.
Rober Mugabe was seen by the western world (mostly the UK) as some kind of saviour able to transcend the black/white problems of the day.
At this time, the country exported more food to the rest of Africa than it used itself.
Up to this independence date, the country had suffered appaling sanctions being placed on it from the western world, primarily the UK.
It was largely self sufficient, except for oil.
It had one of the most enviable infrastructures in Africa. (Electricity, water, roads, health system, schools, apprenticeship schemes and had a very small per capita unemplyment rate)
At the time of Independence the Zimbabwe Dollar was woth 1.47 US Dollars! (I would get RSI if I tried to type in all the zeros that would be applicable today if I tried to now calculate how many Zim dollars I could buy with 1 US dollar. And by the time you had read this, it would have changed exponentially again.)
It had trouble free elections.
Now remember, at this point in time, many people also had a rose tinted view about how great it was going to be in this new, exciting, independent country.

What thoughts on Zimbabwe today? Any comments? See any parallels? Any other real life examples? I know a lot of people that moved to Zimbabwe during this period, looking for the new land of milk and honey. I have a rather sneaking feeling that not too many are there today! And consider the brain drain on qualified people leaving Zimbabwe, that were replaced by relatively lower skilled/lower experienced people, that is being equalled in South Africa today. Don't believe me? Just google South Africans in Austalia/UK/Ireland/USA etc and see for yourself.

Unfortunately, it is without doubt that South Africa is heading the same way. The path may be slightly different, due to other factors, (communications, different tribal dynamics, strong diverse financial base in relation to the rest of the continent), but the destination will be the same. Another failed African state needing bailing out by the rest of the world.

Like many other posters here, in the words of Clarke Gable, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" about those of you who have moved there and are trying to make it work. Truly, I wish you all the luck in the world and I would absolutely love to have to eat my hat after being proved wrong. However, I do believe that it is my birthright to be able to share a little more "perspective" with those that are considering a move on the basis of a one-sided view given by posters such as yourself.

Good luck, hope that you really do well and that South Africa can survive. Me, I prefer to be able to sleep at night, knowing my 17 year old daughter can drive herself home safely, that the dog barking probably means it has seen a cat and that if I wake up to a strange noise in the house, the icemaker has just dropped another load in the freezer.

Aaaah, Zimtony...pls tell me where I have insulted anyone? Hypersensitivity is something that does not often marry well to contributions on open fora/forums.

1. "SA Haters" is a term I quoted from the thread originator. As I stated in previous posts, it is not my term of choice to begin with. This statement alone should take care of most of your post.

2. Of course my "micro" comments are relevant. These are the very comments (and again, I said before, they are only a few examples of such comments) used by "SA Haters" to dispell negativity about the country. But I guess when it doesn't swing in the favour of the "SA hater" it becomes irrelevant. I understand. Amazing how relevant it does become when it suites the person posting isn't it?

3. Thanks for the history lesson on Zimbabwe. But until SA becomes Zimbabwe, i suggest we hold onto the "I told you so's". It has been proven time and time again that predictions of doom have been unfounded - and if not, doom will arrive in an indeterminate time...right? Fact and Prediction are 2 different things. The parallels...well, there will always be parallels. We are in post-colonial Africa. The beginnings of independence will alawys look the same. The brain drain in Zimbabwe is nowhere near comparable to that of South Africa's. But no time now to get into the obviousness of this.

4. Heading towards another failed African state huh? Is this another fact? I'm sorry, but it can't be called fact until sucvh time that it happens. Like the fact that SA was surely headed for civil war and bloodshed in 1994. Liek SA's currency would be worthless by COB 2008 etc etc etc. Nothing but personal opinion and predictions....no fact whatsoever.

5. Ditto on Clarke Gable about those that moved abroad...to each their own. Except that you contradict yourself. You state you don't give a damn, and then that you truly wish us luck....which is it?

6. Pls tell me a single one-sided post I have given to convince anyone to move back to SA. I wait in anticipation. You can't just shoot from the hip without substantiation - even though that is the modus operandi of the "SA Hater" My opinions are based on fact. I am not in denial about crime and all those other lovely things. Your facts are based on predictions...many of which have been proven wrong over...and over again.

7. Glad you can finally sleep well at night. You should've left Zim long ago and come to SA. We sleep quite well here. And please....don't try to convince yourself that you are happy where you are. I'm sure you made the right decision.

[Zimtony]

Darko

Firstly, I left Zim in 1982, a part of the brain drain that occurred. I moved to Johannesburg and then on to Cape Town, before deciding that there was a "big picture" to life and I moved here to Spain in 2001. No need to try and convince myself that I have made the correct decision! Life is safe, healthy not too bad financially, stable, I don't lose any sleep at night if my kids want to stay out in town with friends and I only have to put up with boy racer Spaniards - no Zola Budds trying to force there way into the traffic!

Without getting into a long p*****g competition about who said what in previous posts, all I would confirm is this:
- I would be genuinly delighted if South Africa proves to be the one exception that proves the African rule on failed states. (I still have business interests in South Africa and contribute both in terms of providing employment and in paying taxes.)
- People who who have fairly recently moved to South Africa should be sensible, realistic and truthful about the state of affairs out there, both to themselves and to others who may not have made that final step yet. (I very nearly said fateful step - Freudian slip!)
There may always be exremes in terms of opnions, from both "SA Haters" (not your term!) and "SA Virgins" (my term): However, what cannot be denied are the official figures that prove that South Africa is one of the most violent countries in terms of personal crime in the entire world, it has a rampant HIV problem, there is a huge exodus of talented, skilled and qualified people, being replaced by an influx of mostly unskilled people and that the political framework allows for huge corruption and influence. (Now I am not suggesting that Sr Zapatero here in Spain is an angel, or that Gordon Brown is some tpe of Saint, But Jacob Zuma? Hello!!!!)

Perhaps it can't yet be called fact that SA is heading toward another failed African state. However, when trying to take a view on future outcomes, you can only base it on history, current indicators and how those two devils line up. Unfortunately, the indicators are that South Africa is on the same slope. (Ek is jammer tot enige Afrikaaners wat hierdie post gelees het; die woord "slope" is nie 'bedoel soos 'n ledig nie!)

Of course time wil tell and perception is the only reality. If you are convinced that SA is safe, a great place to bring up kids, no major political problems and not going down the drain, then hey, that is your reality! Me, I know too many people who have been through this same situation in Africa, from Zambia, Mozambique, Zimababwe to ignore historical facts.
You know, when us lot from (the then) Rhodeisa first moved to SOuth Africa in the 80's, our nickname from the South Africvans was "whenwee's" coz all we talked about was "when was in Rhodesia..." now we are called the "Herewee's" as in, "here we go again!!"

Looks like I contradicted myself again and wrote an essay!

Genuinly, good luck in your new life in SA. I honestly hope that things work out as you visualise (another almost Freudian slip by typing fantasize!). Me, I've been there, got the TShirt, read the book, done the service, seen the crime first hand (got the battle scars to prove), lost friends, seen lives shattered and actually don't want the aggro.

BTW, been there long? Where are you living? Where on Mud Island where you from?