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So I need some advice... - Page 6


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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 17th April 2013, 05:37 AM
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We'll have to politely disagree on the extent of blame that can be attached to organised religion.

Religion, as an reinforced cultural instution, does have a significant effect on the attitudes of the culture that practices it, but it also caters to a deeply ingrained human desire for *something* to provide a sense of existence and a sense that you're being guided through life. Which is why I think it's rubbish that if somehow organised religion had never come into being we'd be better off. We'd simply have turned to other forms of organised ideology. The officially atheist societies such as communism as well as other ideology based movements such as fascism were pretty d*mn destructive, and possibly more so than the main organised religions because most religions do preach some type of empathy and tolerance (however it's executed in real life) whereas the non-religious ideology based movements tended to be harsher and more exclusive.

Then we do have other forms of cultural discrimination such as race and nationality and class and cultural insularity, giving us situations where groups of people practicing the same religion still discriminated against each other, and quite often brutally.

I do like the notion that all we need is a sense of empathy to govern ourselves and our societies, but history has told us quite a lot about human nature that makes me think it isn't so simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hubbly_bubbly View Post
I think you may be underestimating the true power of organised religion in how it seeps in and becomes ingrained in all our psyches, thus affecting even the most simplest of everyday occurrences... like a greeting or a curse.

Take this recent Easter period. Millions of people celebrated the death of a (fictional) character by symbolically eating his body and drinking his blood and then asking for their souls to be redeemed. That doesn't strike you in the least bit as disturbed? But it is considered "normal" behaviour, no? And the men that lead these celebrations, also "guide" millions on what to do with their lives and more even insidiously, how they should in turn guide others.

If all religion was removed from the equation, say from today, the world would be a very different place in a very short time - and for the better, imho. The same result had it been removed, I dunno, a thousand years ago.

We don't need religion to have morals and ethics. We, quite simply, need empathy.

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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 17th April 2013, 11:37 AM
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I most politely disagree too.

However, does that mean we can't discuss or constructively criticise? Organised religion is a human concept/ritual/ideology after all.

History does tell us that we humans believed in a whole lot of make-believe which has had terrible consequences. Organised religion, the main culprit, continuously makes stuff up because it is not open to criticism. Why? Humans love fantasy. Kids love it. Teenagers love it. Adults love it. The elderly love it. Everyone loves it. We make sh!t up and we don't like it we're we told we are wrong or we are lying. Simple as that. Ironically, it's a major facet of human evolution.

Science (as a collective thought process) makes stuff up too, but then must be proved with constructive evidence or it is debunked.

Communism and fascism are political ideologies that hijacked atheism to control the masses. These "societies" are not ruled by nor are open to nor will ever allow free-thinkers. (It is now most likely that one would jailed and fined, up to $10,000USD, for taking on the Orthodox Church in Russia, thanks to the Pussy Riot/Femen movement. There goes your atheist society theory.)

So then, what about a complete ideology of open and transparent education? The current battle has narrowed down to creationism versus evolution, no? What about universal philosophers instead of specifically dogmatic religious preachers? What about education instead of ritualistic ceremonies in make-believe?

"Big Boy" McFluffin here won't get to be with the love of his life because of the insurmountable hurdles of intolerant, duplicitous and ignorant make-believe that stands in his/her/their way. At the epicentre of this struggle is organised religion.

The next step, after empathy, is humility.

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Last edited by hubbly_bubbly; 17th April 2013 at 11:45 AM. Reason: love, love. loves.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 17th April 2013, 01:03 PM
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Youíre falling into the trap of taking the attitude that organised religion is a lump sum package, take it or leave it. In most cases it isnít. But what religions do represent are hundreds, even thousands, of years of cultural evolution and change.

You are correct that part of religion is an attempt to explain the world around us. Some if it is as simple as how the earth came into being. But religion is much more complicated than stories of Noahís Ark or how God created the world in seven days or the Greek mythologies. What people responded to the most are attempts by religions to provide a moral guide Ė the lessons of how we should behave, govern our lives, treat one another, which is all part of the need to create a sense of order out of the chaos. All the main religions from Christianity to Judaism to Confucianism to Shintoism are essentially about how people should live, much more so than fantasies of how the world came into being.

Now, religions do subscribe to the belief in a higher being(s) from whom the moral authority flows, but youíll find most of the debates among those who practice religion is the relevance and interpretations of moral codes being practiced, not whether Noahís Ark was real or thereís an Easter bunny. This may not be so apparent to you today but in the not too distant past when the world was a much more brutal place the popularity of the major religions largely stemmed from their attempt to actually protect their followers by instilling widely accepted moral practices that attempted to equalise human relations to some degree. Christianity, for starters, first took off as a religion among the Roman slaves and poor because in its early days it didnít judge a poor man differently. You ask about empathy, well, let me tell you Christian teaching is about empathy for the most part.

Communism and elements of fascism attacked organised religion as a drug that controlled the masses, their leaders and followers were for the most part deeply committed atheists so itís not fair to separate atheism from these societies as if it had somehow been Ďhijackedí to control the masses. The early leaders saw religion as a threat to their own ideology and went to great extremes to squelch the influence of religion Ė both in Soviet Russia and Maoís china, when priests were persecuted and churches and temples were destroyed. But thatís because they were atheists who saw religion as antiquated pseudo-ideological junk that needed to be destroyed so people would finally be 'free'.

Iím not sure why your proffered claim about fines for attacking the Orthodox Church rejects any atheist society theory I put forward. The Soviet Union was officially atheist, its leaders and most of its party members certainly were atheists, and the communist party heavily repressed the Orthodox church and its followers.

By the way, are you aware that the Catholic church accepts evolution as part of its teachings? Not all practitioners of religion reject evolution and youíll find there is such a thing as a liberal Christian or Jew and your typical CoE congregation is going to have no issues accepting evolution and the existence of a higher being at the same time because, as I mentioned above, for many people religion isnít just a set of myths of how the world came into being.

Iím not sure what you mean by universal philosophers. If youíre saying everyone should have access to a free exchange of ideas in a protected environment, I completely agree with you, but I will also remind you that many educational practitioners can be quite dogmatic in their particular beliefs.

Itís very much part of human nature to develop a strong conviction in what you believe and that your particular sets of belief is generally the correct one. After all, your logic tells you it is.

The downside is that one does tend to develop a degree of contempt for those who donít share the same set of beliefs. Unfortunately youíve expressed this contempt in the language of your post, dismissing religious ceremonies as 'ritualistic ceremonies in make-believe' implies contempt on your part while at the same time youíre asking for 'open and transparent education'Ö..I suppose it's only 'open and transparent' on your terms rather than a genuinely open and free forum for an exchange of ideas.



Quote:
Originally Posted by hubbly_bubbly View Post
I most politely disagree too.

However, does that mean we can't discuss or constructively criticise? Organised religion is a human concept/ritual/ideology after all.

History does tell us that we humans believed in a whole lot of make-believe which has had terrible consequences. Organised religion, the main culprit, continuously makes stuff up because it is not open to criticism. Why? Humans love fantasy. Kids love it. Teenagers love it. Adults love it. The elderly love it. Everyone loves it. We make sh!t up and we don't like it we're we told we are wrong or we are lying. Simple as that. Ironically, it's a major facet of human evolution.

Science (as a collective thought process) makes stuff up too, but then must be proved with constructive evidence or it is debunked.

Communism and fascism are political ideologies that hijacked atheism to control the masses. These "societies" are not ruled by nor are open to nor will ever allow free-thinkers. (It is now most likely that one would jailed and fined, up to $10,000USD, for taking on the Orthodox Church in Russia, thanks to the Pussy Riot/Femen movement. There goes your atheist society theory.)

So then, what about a complete ideology of open and transparent education? The current battle has narrowed down to creationism versus evolution, no? What about universal philosophers instead of specifically dogmatic religious preachers? What about education instead of ritualistic ceremonies in make-believe?

"Big Boy" McFluffin here won't get to be with the love of his life because of the insurmountable hurdles of intolerant, duplicitous and ignorant make-believe that stands in his/her/their way. At the epicentre of this struggle is organised religion.

The next step, after empathy, is humility.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 17th April 2013, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hubbly_bubbly View Post
I think you may be underestimating the true power of organised religion in how it seeps in and becomes ingrained in all our psyches, thus affecting even the most simplest of everyday occurrences... like a greeting or a curse.

Take this recent Easter period. Millions of people celebrated the death of a (fictional) character by symbolically eating his body and drinking his blood and then asking for their souls to be redeemed. That doesn't strike you in the least bit as disturbed? But it is considered "normal" behaviour, no? And the men that lead these celebrations, also "guide" millions on what to do with their lives and more even insidiously, how they should in turn guide others.

If all religion was removed from the equation, say from today, the world would be a very different place in a very short time - and for the better, imho. The same result had it been removed, I dunno, a thousand years ago.

We don't need religion to have morals and ethics. We, quite simply, need empathy.

^^^^^^^^^
What he said!

The ONLY thing Religion has delivered is fantastic Architecture, but even that is tainted by slave labour, forced tything etc.

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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 17th April 2013, 01:50 PM
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Please do not hijack poor heartbroken McFluffy thread, this was supposed to be about him wanting advice on how to marry his Arabian princess and not another discussion about religion.

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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 17th April 2013, 02:06 PM
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For the record (I msgd Tally Ho in reply as well) I wish to get back to "McFluffy's" heartbreak with a considered response. The case for my side of the argument and how it just won't work is basically because of organised religion. If we behave ourselves, so to speak, let the conversation roll a little? I believe that this issue effects everyone who is anyone who has wanted to date a female Emirati.

If not, then that's okay too. It is what it is.

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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 17th April 2013, 02:09 PM
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Awww does that mean I can't ask which mobile phone I should buy? I don't think that guy has posted lately!

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Old 17th April 2013, 02:19 PM
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I think that there is a chance that this young woman's father is an incredibly progressive gentleman. He will only think of his daughter's happiness and will embrace McFluffy with open arms. He will give him a job where he can use his MBA (which of course includes a company Benz) and also buy them a nice bungalow in Emirates Hills as a wedding present.

You all are far to pessimistic.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 17th April 2013, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
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Who is that guy Mandigo? He was bothering me through pm recently
Me too...

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Old 17th April 2013, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
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Me too...
If someone is bothering you by PM you can always report the private message (click on the little exclamation sign).

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