Guadalajara and Lake Chapala

[Traveler123]

Steve,

Great info. However, I noticed that you did not mention any of the crime in the Lakeside area. From what I've read on other forums, there is a significant amount of petty theft (break-ins and some muggings, purse-snatchings) that are increasing and also becoming more aggressive. These are not just the result of opportunistic thefts (windows left open, purses dangling in a crowded market, etc), but from what I've read, they involve bars being pried open with tools, locks being removed forcefully from doors, very high walls being scaled, etc. Sometimes the maids or gardeners are part of the theft, since they can tell family members or friends about what is in the home or apartment, and also alert thieves of the resident's schedule.

From what I've read (reading various forums over 2 years), the number of break-ins, even with residents at home, seems high for the population, based on resident meetings at the Lake Chapala Society, and resident meetings with local officials. There are known drug houses in the area as well. At any rate, I do think that a discussion of the crime in the area is important for anyone looking for info about the area for a possible retirement or move or even a stay of several months a year.

[stevebrtx]

Great info. However, I noticed that you did not mention any of the crime in the Lakeside area. From what I've read on other forums, there is a significant amount of petty theft (break-ins and some muggings, purse-snatchings) that are increasing and also becoming more aggressive. These are not just the result of opportunistic thefts (windows left open, purses dangling in a crowded market, etc), but from what I've read, they involve bars being pried open with tools, locks being removed forcefully from doors, very high walls being scaled, etc. Sometimes the maids or gardeners are part of the theft, since they can tell family members or friends about what is in the home or apartment, and also alert thieves of the resident's schedule.

From what I've read (reading various forums over 2 years), the number of break-ins, even with residents at home, seems high for the population, based on resident meetings at the Lake Chapala Society, and resident meetings with local officials. There are known drug houses in the area as well. At any rate, I do think that a discussion of the crime in the area is important for anyone looking for info about the area for a possible retirement or move or even a stay of several months a year.[/quote]Yes, there is some crime, but from what I can tell it's minimal by comparison to many or most places NOB. The ones lately you've been reading about are (guess where) in the village, there a thief has a better chance of getting away. Plus there is strong suspicion that a crime "family" is in the area using kids as look outs etc. I really don't believe the crime is a problem here, it's certainly nothing I spend much time addressing. I do the usual and try to be aware.

Now to be honest I don't have a maid per se, she works with her husband the gardener outside (and it's not at all that I don't trust her or them) but I have computer equipment etc. and just don't feel comfortable with someone else in my space. Now, I often leave the compound when they are here and leave the doors open so I trust them, but that's just my comfort level (and yes, it's a bit dusty at times, what can I tell you, we're bachelors baby! - me and Max the gato).

There are houses with barbed wire and electrified wire around the compound including concertina razor wire and I always wonder what is inside that they are so paranoid about. Many years ago I had a Corvette, in fact all I ever had until late life was convertibles and you never left anything in them because someone would cut the top to see what you had, left open if was obvious you had nothing.

There are much greater things in the world to worry about in my opinion.

[Traveler123]

Originally Posted by stevebrtx

Yes, there is some crime, but from what I can tell it's minimal by comparison to many or most places NOB. The ones lately you've been reading about are (guess where) in the village, there a thief has a better chance of getting away. Plus there is strong suspicion that a crime "family" is in the area using kids as look outs etc. I really don't believe the crime is a problem here, it's certainly nothing I spend much time addressing. I do the usual and try to be aware.

Now to be honest I don't have a maid per se, she works with her husband the gardener outside (and it's not at all that I don't trust her or them) but I have computer equipment etc. and just don't feel comfortable with someone else in my space. Now, I often leave the compound when they are here and leave the doors open so I trust them, but that's just my comfort level (and yes, it's a bit dusty at times, what can I tell you, we're bachelors baby! - me and Max the gato).

There are houses with barbed wire and electrified wire around the compound including concertina razor wire and I always wonder what is inside that they are so paranoid about. Many years ago I had a Corvette, in fact all I ever had until late life was convertibles and you never left anything in them because someone would cut the top to see what you had, left open if was obvious you had nothing.

There are much greater things in the world to worry about in my opinion.

Steve,

Your info is thoughtful and well-written. I guess each individual has to determine his or her level of comfort in terms of the safety in various cities in Mexico. My only point was that when providing an overview of the Chapala area, perhaps mentioning the safety issues would be worthwhile. The large number of expats in Lakeside, coupled with the economic downturn both NoB and SoB, are likely contributors to increased petty crimes. From what I've read, however, the level of aggression toward individuals that is used in common break-ins or muggings in Lakeside is far less than NoB (you aren't likely to be shot in a purse-snatching in Ajijic as you might be in Detroit or Houston or other US cities). In any case, your comments are always excellent and informative.

[RVGRINGO]

Traveler's assumption is correct. What also must be noted is that there is a lot of 'chatter' about crime which is stimulated by worry, rather than actual fact. There is always a seasonal increase in petty crime before Christmas, for example, and those posts remain for people to read; over and over again. The same incident may be posted on several forums, by several people, and appear to be a crime wave.
The truth is, that we are much safer here than we've ever felt anywhere else; with the possible exception of Izmir, Turkey in the early 1960s.
It is a lot like the 'drug wars' scaring people from driving in Mexico; more 'hype' than anything. We drive without worry and sometimes wonder how the typical perceptions of Mexico are formed in the minds of people who have never visited any place more 'Mexican' than Cancun, or some other artificial tourist destination. Those 1920s bandito movies sure do have lasting power!

[privado]

Originally Posted by douglowell

I'm interested in retiring to Mexico, and curious about Guadalajara. I'm a city person in many ways, and I'm wondering what expat life in that city is like. Which neighborhoods should I look at if I'm trying to live reasonably (but not like a pauper). I'm not into gated communities at all.

Does Guadalajara live up to its "San Francisco of Mexico" reputation in city quality? Obviously I'll need an extended visit of my own, but I'd love to hear from residents about why they love it and what's to be aware of.

Thanks so much.

Doug

I'm from the Bay Area- hopefully my answer will a little more enlighning- I moved to Lake Chapala area 3 .5 years ago - 90% of the Expat community is over the age of 60- I found the life in and around the villages REALLY NOT like liviing on the pennisula, Marin or East Bay. Villages are very collquial -small town attitudes, and ideas----marrieds only mix with marrieds and singles have to find a group. People rarely go out at night- life dies after 8pm
My house was burglarized twice--- the crime wave you read about exists- I lived in the Bay Area most of my life and never experienced the crimes that exits in and around Chapala. Car windows broken- antennas broken off - spare tires ripped off a jeep etc-you must be vigilant 24 hrs a day in your own home and live with doors and windows locked.
Finally, I had it and luckily sold my house and moved to Guad- Zapopan 9 mos. ago- What a DIFFERENCE - a real city- with nightlife- restaurants etc-theatres etc but laid out like the suburbs- very similar to LA
City is spread out- so you really can live in the City and be anyplace in 15 minutes as there is no real city center of restaurants bars, movies malls etc-
Zapopan is the newest part of the city - Univ of Guad is located here as well as other universites , Shopping malls etc. and I would suggest that perhaps you might want to look there first or close to the city line for a place to live if you decide to come here. The city is made of small gated apt complexes, housing complexes etc, but it is so normal - you don't even think twice about it

However, Mexicans in Guadalajara are a very closed society- they socialize with family first, then friends they have known since school- or people they work with- IT IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO BREAK INTO THESE GROUPS- UNLESS YOU KNOW SOMEONE MEXICAN- this is not just my opinion- but the opinion of Mexicans themselves-who say- Why do I need anybody Else ??

I was fortunate- as I had been in business here- so I have an IN- but even with that- it is difficult- depending on your level of Spanish. Most all Business people speak English- BUT- of course they prefer to socialize in Spanish- you will always be at the bottom of their list for for any kind of get together- lunch, diner, going out etc after family, old freinds etc Something to really think about-
I know younger people who came here from the Bay Area and could NOT make it in Guad's very closed society and Left disapointed.

Hope this gives you a better picture-

PS Air Quality is only usually bad in March, April- May- hottest months

[Traveler123]

As far as living in Guad, isn't there a large community of expats in GDL? Perhaps that might be a way to meet people in a very large city, although you'd be meeting other expats, but at least it might provide some social activities and a way to meet others. There must be organizations or clubs or places where expats meet and socialize. Maybe these are listed in a GDL newspaper or online or on other forums. I realize that interacting with other expats may not address the issue of meeting locals, etc. But it might be a place to start for someone without a lot of connections to the Mexican society in a large city.

[RVGRINGO]

One must realize the magnitude of the Guadalajara Metropolitan Zone, which includes other municipalities like Zapopan, Tlaquepaque, Ixtlahuacan, Tonala, Tlajomulco, etc., in its spread and encompasses a population of unknown proportions; some say almost six million. If I were looking for expats, I think I would head for Tlaquepaque on the weekends. If I were retired and too old and decrepit to enjoy nightlife (Thanks, Privado!), which I am, I would stay right here in Chapala and just go to Guadalajara when the mood strikes and the body is willing.

[Kaye]

RV Gringo - and others, I hope my question isn't 'off topic' for this Guadalajara-focused thread, because the realistic comments above do address my concerns about relocating anywhere in Mexico as an older, single person. I'm hoping that a smaller city, like Morelia with a central area, might offer more opportunity to at least 'mingle' with the locals and become involved through volunteering, etc. I know there aren't many expats there, but having interests in common with even a few of them (playing music) might help. Is Morelia seen as 'self-contained' a society as is Guadalajara? Any comments? Thanks!

[privado]

This is what I have learned
My understanding is that most ExPats are working here- and therfore have a built in group of people- in their company. My only English speaking friend in Guad is my neighbor- who is the Canadian Counsel General- she told me there was an Ex Pat group that used to meet at a rest. here in Zapopan- but when the main players got transferred- the group died off- and I never really pursued it -since I already had long time Mexican friends and acqaintances.
There is the American Legion ( but have never been there)-have been told it's a bunch of older retired folks- who have lived here a while

Mexicans are very gracious, friendly and helpful but Guadalajaran's consider themselves - to be the most sophisticated-and the most European in all of Mexico!! -they think anybody from Mexico City is a wannabe-even if they've lived here for 25 years. Second family names (mothers family name) are really important - who your parents or grandparents are ( old family names ) or were-- in many cases determines your social status in this very class concious city. Its a city of WHO YOU KNOW- and who you're related to.

Callif. is SOO Different- so many people from everywhere- people mingle and talk with everyone- and San Francisco is so open it's easy to meet people anywhere-

Mexicans see their family as their primary social circle- Husbands- wives and their children, then Parents- Grandparents- Sisters & Brothers, their children, Aunts & Uncles, Cousins and their wives & husbands and their children, God children etc etc- they see their main family every week and with all those relatives- there is always a family gathering taking place.

Next the old friends- who generally are a select group- who always socialize together and you almost never get into this group --unless you are connected to a Mexican. There can be 2 groups- everyone knows each other and for Xmas etc the 2 will all get together- but they only sit and talk with their own group- I find this really strange, and sometimes find myself just being the observer of the culture.
Favorite pastime- Dinner for some occasion-Birthday etc around 3-4pm and then sit around the dining table for 6-8 hours talking and drinking- leave about 12pm then stop off with some of group for tacos somewhere in city- get home at 230-3am- or you may meet your group in a Restaurant at about 930pm eat and talk until 130-2pm - the city is open all night- Taco places have long standing corners for years- all over the city-You will see whole families, Grandma, kids etc eating in the more popular taco restaruants at 12 am on the weekends- most popular time of night for tacos 3-5am-so parts of the city are going all night.

Young singles are out all night- there is a bar next to the new mall-near my house on Fri and Sat nights 400++ cars lining the streets for blocks- the place jumps until 6am-luckily not close enough to hear.

From people I know who have lived around the world- This is pretty normal- It's hard to fit in with locals ---without something in common like work.

[privado]

Originally Posted by Kaye

RV Gringo - and others, I hope my question isn't 'off topic' for this Guadalajara-focused thread, because the realistic comments above do address my concerns about relocating anywhere in Mexico as an older, single person. I'm hoping that a smaller city, like Morelia with a central area, might offer more opportunity to at least 'mingle' with the locals and become involved through volunteering, etc. I know there aren't many expats there, but having interests in common with even a few of them (playing music) might help. Is Morelia seen as 'self-contained' a society as is Guadalajara? Any comments? Thanks!

I love Morelia- BUT I have heard it has very few Expats- most are marriied-or a couple already and what happens in Guadalajara is worse for Ex Pats in Morelia

I think we all have ideals of Mingling with the locals- but as a Long time Host of foreign Exhange University students in Calif. It was a common complaint of students from all over the world- that wanted to friends with American young people- WHY WON'T THEY BE MY FRIEND- The same thing applies here- they don't NEED you as a friend when they have so many family etc already and language is a barrier that is hard to break.

Sorry to sound glum- but it's reality. Few people who live in Chapala really have Mexican friends who are in the same socio economic class- who they socialize with as friends - not the employer.