San Miguel de Allende

[Longford]

Originally Posted by grotton

Your post confirms an assumption that we've been developing as we do our research. That buying a house that is in a market saturated by expatriate (gringo) buyers leaves you more vulnerable to the patterns of the American buyer who have in the last few years not been buying real estate like they used to.

Relative to the overall population there, foreigners comprise a small percentage. If the city's "saturated" it's saturated with Mexicans not foreigners. That's been my observation. I doubt you're going to have a problem finding something you like there, or anywhere else you look in Mexico, that falls within the price range you're prepared to pay.

[conklinwh]

Grotton, not sure how you did it but you've pulled in multiple 1st time posters from SMA.
We spent 5 years renting in SMA and it was great. When we decided to buy/build in 2006, it was at the high end of the market so for that and others reasons, like noise & traffic we looked at nearby options although wanting to stay close. We ended up 45 min away but go into San Miguel about once a week. Most of our friends are artists that live well and pretty inexpensively. Because Aurora has caused somewhat of a shift in art location, many are now in the Guadalupe & Independencia areas.
Not sure if crime has risen or just better reported but the weekly postings in the Atencion have gone from basically nothing to a little.
What has impacted us is night driving. We used to not much worry but now try to minimize.
This has caused us to spend days in San Miguel versus evenings and we miss the evenings to the point that we are looking at possibility of a small condo in San Miguel. I'm presently surprised with the options under $200K in such places as Gaudiana which is a big change.
As with anything, I would rent in one or more places. BTW, the mayor reported last year that there were 12K expats in San Miguel. San Miguel, like a lot of places, is both a city and sort of a county with multiple other communities included so not sure whether the 12K compares to the about 65K in the city or the about 112K in the "county".

[TundraGreen]

Originally Posted by Longford

Relative to the overall population there, foreigners comprise a small percentage. If the city's "saturated" it's saturated with Mexicans not foreigners. That's been my observation. I doubt you're going to have a problem finding something you like there, or anywhere else you look in Mexico, that falls within the price range you're prepared to pay.

According to Wikipedia (and its references), there are 8,000 to 12,000 foreigners in San Miguel de Allende out of a total population of around 140,000. As a point of contrast, there are about the same number of expats near Lake Chapala while the total population there is about 45,000.

[conklinwh]

TG, this gets to the city/county discussion as most expats probably in/close to the city which is about half the total at around 65K but this is changing. I thought that RVG said that there is more like 20K expats Lakeside.

[grotton]

Originally Posted by conklinwh

Grotton, not sure how you did it but you've pulled in multiple 1st time posters from SMA.
We spent 5 years renting in SMA and it was great. When we decided to buy/build in 2006, it was at the high end of the market so for that and others reasons, like noise & traffic we looked at nearby options although wanting to stay close. We ended up 45 min away but go into San Miguel about once a week. Most of our friends are artists that live well and pretty inexpensively. Because Aurora has caused somewhat of a shift in art location, many are now in the Guadalupe & Independencia areas.
Not sure if crime has risen or just better reported but the weekly postings in the Atencion have gone from basically nothing to a little.
What has impacted us is night driving. We used to not much worry but now try to minimize.
This has caused us to spend days in San Miguel versus evenings and we miss the evenings to the point that we are looking at possibility of a small condo in San Miguel. I'm presently surprised with the options under $200K in such places as Gaudiana which is a big change.
As with anything, I would rent in one or more places. BTW, the mayor reported last year that there were 12K expats in San Miguel. San Miguel, like a lot of places, is both a city and sort of a county with multiple other communities included so not sure whether the 12K compares to the about 65K in the city or the about 112K in the "county".

I appreciate how thoughtful the posters have been with their comments. Crime, though it has an profound impact on movement to and from Mexico, has not been a huge concern of mine mostly because I have never seen or experienced it directly in my travels across the country. I walk, play, eat out all around Guadalajara enjoying night life, bars, clubs etc with my Mexican family and friends and we just don't see the crime. But one headline about a murdered American who perhaps used bad judgement inviting people into his house he shouldn't have for reasons he might be ashamed of is presented in the media as expat life in Mexico. After one trip to GDL i returned to Seattle and read in the paper that 13 murders occurred over the weekend. In Seattle. But there is no migration out of town in response. So I'm not afraid of crime in regards to it jumping out and grabbing me, but as with everyone, concerned about how misgivings about the crime "situation" in Mexico effect patterns, prices and life where we want to settle.

[conklinwh]

Crime is basically everywhere and getting worse as there is more economic pressure. This is basically a worldwide versus Mexico statement. We don't really think of crime much differently here than when we lived in the US. What is different is the amount of protection built in and the horrific nature of some of the killings. When I 1st started traveling outside the US, I was amazed that basically everyplace had bars on the windows and locked gates.
Mexico is certainly no different and we have a lot more property protection in Mexico than the US. We don't see much violent crime and probably a lot less than we saw in the US.
The problem is that the horrific nature of the acts gets a lot of attention in the US which certainly dampens US tourism and home buying. There have been a lot of conspiracy discussions that at least part of the publicity is aimed at keeping retirees and their dollars in the US versus moving to Mexico.
I certainly would not let crime be the decider on moving to Mexico or SMA in particular. I would, as in any city, make it part of the decision on where in that city that I would rent or buy. More important is how you feel about the place and what it offers. I think that SMA and the surrounding area is wonderful but that my view, not yours.

[Longford]

Originally Posted by TundraGreen

According to Wikipedia (and its references), there are 8,000 to 12,000 foreigners in San Miguel de Allende out of a total population of around 140,000. As a point of contrast, there are about the same number of expats near Lake Chapala while the total population there is about 45,000.

I'll suggest that the Wiki information is probably not accurate. I believe the 12,000 number is more than double the number of expats living there full-time. I've seen the numbers quoted in Atencion San Miguel newspaper but don't recall exactly. I also saw, somewhere a year ago, a compilation of foreigners resideing in Mexico during the last Census period and have lost the link. I have a link for the Census results but don't have the interest in searching through the site to see if the numbers are presented. Others here may have that interest, though.

Censo de Población y Vivienda 2010

I also think (emphasis on think) the city population is about 65,000 or slightly less and that the larger number would be for the expansive municipio. For the two municipios in which a majority of the Lakeside expats are living ... the 2010 Census lists the population at 91,000 (Chapala and Jocotepec).

Tourist visits from the USA, SMA's principal drawing point, have dropped significantly in the past several years ... from what I'm recalling (and I think there's been reference to that in the comments of another person, earlier in the discussion).

The point I meant to emphasize is that I believe the often heard comment that SMA is over-run with foreigners is not based on fact.

Thanks.

[cherirae]

Originally Posted by cuylers5746

Hi Restless in Seattle;

Actually, I would say that you have embarked on a very sound plan of attach, and yes I would explore San Miguel de Allende (SMA) for living there for a year or two.

A little background on where my and my wife's advice is coming from. My wife of 37 years and I have lived or worked in 41 States in USA. Living with her family her Dad was a Director of Tubos de Aceros in D.F. and they had a ranch in Vera Cruz State and home in Vera Cruz, a house in D.F. and her's mom's home from the 1750's in Tepic, Nayarit and she had traveled or lived on short assignments with her dad in many major cities in Mexico. Oh, while single one time I worked for NOAAA on MS Fairweather in Alaska and ended up in Seattle, later renting with some buddies a floating house on Lake Union in Seattle. I helped open a Restaurant at White Pass Ski areas. So, we've been around the block 1 or 2 times.

I put off going to SMA for over 30-40 years, thinking we Gringo's had probably ruined the place after 40-50 years of infiltration? Last year we went for 5 days after reading that delightful book about a couple of young Architects from L.A. went on vacations to visit their friends in SMA and basically bought a 200 year old run down house, fixed it up and never went home (so to speak). That's how SMA can effect you. By the way go on the Official SMA City Website and you will find the book there. Buy it and read it before you go, it will help you a lot. Unfortunately it's listed on my LapTop who's motherboard just went south. If we didn't have business and personal interests in Tepic, Nayarit my wife would demand that we relocated to SMA.

Here's the life style in a quick synophis;
1.) It's a World Heritage City and THE Jewel of Mexico. It takes quaint and pushes the word off
the scale.
2.) Great Cafe Society, very educated populace, great tough Police Force, that can get the job
done. Several strategic Camera's in the Sky around town to keep security tight
3.) Now it even has two great new Golf Courses outside of town with spectacular views of the
downtown.
4.) A smaller/walking town. Most things are 12-13 blocks from the main town square, excepting
the homes up on the hill overlooking downtown.
5.) There are familes from 70 different nationalities that keep homes/villas here.
6.) Great Restaurants.
7.) Village type night life, as you cruise from bar/night club to the next.
8.) You or your wife can take Cooking Classes of Mexican Cuisine from 4 hours to 7 day classes
and learn to cook with some of the over 120 types of Chile in Mexico.
9.) Have Great/Fantastic Art Institutes (one huge one on outskirts of town) to learn Art.
10.)A couple of Good Museums.
11.) You'd be living in the Heart of the Revolution Belts with Hildalgo just 30 kms north and
a one in a kind city on this whole planet "Guanajuato" about 1 hour west.
12.) All this surrounded by wild rangeland, pretty much how the Spanish discovered it 400 years
ago.
13.) Discover all 3; Hildalgo, SMA, and Guanajuato and you too might love the life style in
SMA the best.
14,) Security wise? It's off the main migration path for the Cartels to move major shipments of
of Drugs, so the violence is whole lot less there. That and only 2-3 ways in or out of town
so the Police/Military can lock the whole town down quickly if any bad action occurs.

Downsides;
1.) It's 170 miles +/- from D.F. and Mexican National Holidays and some Fiestas can become
crowed from people coming from D.F.
2.) It's up high in elevation and cool in the winter (no, that's probably a plus for people coming
from Seattle.?

Real Estate:
1.) Well you got the right game plan; 1.) Find the City/Village you know for sure you want to
live in and rent first making sure you are right - get plugged into the locals and find the best
real deals to buy.
2.) Generally speaking R.E. in North America will not hit bottom in prices until we hit bottom of
this 240+ Year SuperCycle Depression event - around 2016-2017. So, don't get in any
hurry, rent in various Cities/Villages and get your lifestyle down pat, then buy.
3.) Europe is in a whole World of Hurt Right now. Can probably rent an incredible Villa, keep
it up for the owners in SMA and allow them to show it to sell it. R.E. Sells SLOWLY in
Mexico? First few people have access to the US Mortgage Market for Mexico, bigger down
payments, and most people pay cash for their homes. That takes time. Figures what ever
you buy in Mexico (homes) might take you 2-4 years to finalize a sell.

My advice; Go for it! Like your gut said. Just step off the Planet into Mexico, absorb, enjoy,
laugh a lot, enjoy and slowly get imersed in the culture, language, cuisine and explore, explore, explore. There are so many treasures in Mexico, it's almost mind bogglying to make a choice where to live. Until you're down there here from locals, you'll never even have an inkling of an idea of such fantasic little places to explore and might want to live. Run, as if you're over 30 there's not enough time to see all the Treasures of Mexico!

Oh, I remember the good ole days when Guadalajara was only 400-500k inhabitants, now with all the suburbs it's over 9 million - too big for us.

I hope this helps.

Cuyler

Thanks Cuyler for your summary of life in San Miguel. I will be visiting there soon with intention of looking for long-term rental. My goal is to simplify my life and therefore live on a very limited fixed income. I have no desire to live an American lifestyle in Mexico ..... I have a desire to assimilate into the Mexican culture. With careful planning I think I can do that. Any further suggestions in that regard would be appreciated. Also, you mentioned being 150 miles from D.F. ..... what is D.F?

[Longford]

Originally Posted by cherirae

Thanks Cuyler for your summary of life in San Miguel. I will be visiting there soon with intention of looking for long-term rental. My goal is to simplify my life and therefore live on a very limited fixed income. I have no desire to live an American lifestyle in Mexico ..... I have a desire to assimilate into the Mexican culture. With careful planning I think I can do that. Any further suggestions in that regard would be appreciated. Also, you mentioned being 150 miles from D.F. ..... what is D.F?

The abbreviation "D.F." stands for Distrito Federal. The Federal District. a/k/a Mexico City.

You've probably already investigated this, but, in case you haven't ... Mexico requires expat residents to demonstrate a certain verifiable minimum income/influx into a bank account on a monthy basis. I draw attention to the requirement in connection with your comment ""My goal is to simplify my life and therefore live on a very limited fixed income." I think the 2012 number is about US$1,250 per month. It's adjusted yearly.

Best of luck with your relocation planning. San Miguel de Allende is one of my most favored destinations in Mexico.

[cherirae]

Thanks Longford for you timely response .... I was aware of the need to demonstrate minimum monthly income and was pleased to discover I did meet the requirement.