Cinco de Mayo NOB

[vetty09]

Originally Posted by conorkilleen

I still don't understand how some Americans still celebrate the 5th and have not clue what is means. There are still Mexicans for that matter that don't know what Sept 16th is. While vacationing in Oaxaca last year and visiting my wifes family, we had a tequila fueled discussion about Mexican Independence. Not one of 16 people sitting at the table could tell me "whom" Mexico won its independence from. Answers ranged from France, to the US, to England. I was embarrassed for them.

Really? As a Mexican I feel that is ridiculous. Although, its hard to believe, my whole family lives in Mexico and they all know when Independence day is and who we gained it from.
I have a very large family - my mom is one of 7 and all her siblings have a min. of 3 kids each, with one having 6. Many of my cousins having kids as well.
I actually have never met a Mexican person that does not know the history of their country, even if they no longer live there (meaning American Mexicans).

Also, depending of the area, there are different countries from which the Independence was gained. Some areas gained it from Spain others from France, for example, so I can see why the answers were different, but the US? Really?!

[conklinwh]

I don't really understand the Spanish/French independence point. All of Mexico fought and achieved independence from Spain 1810-1821. The French incursion and Maximillian was an "independence" of sorts but I would expect Juarez would call it a continuing battle to get the French out rather than independence. Even in Chiapas which joined Mexico from Guatemaula after the plebiscite received independence originally from Spain.

[vetty09]

Originally Posted by conklinwh

I don't really understand the Spanish/French independence point. All of Mexico fought and achieved independence from Spain 1810-1821. The French incursion and Maximillian was an "independence" of sorts but I would expect Juarez would call it a continuing battle to get the French out rather than independence. Even in Chiapas which joined Mexico from Guatemaula after the plebiscite received independence originally from Spain.

You could call it that, but in the end it was Puebla that defeated the French which started the movement towards independence. This being what 5 de Mayo derived from.

[Isla Verde]

Originally Posted by vetty09

You could call it that, but in the end it was Puebla that defeated the French which started the movement towards independence. This being what 5 de Mayo derived from.

Mexico's independence from Spain was achieved in 1820 after ten years of war. France never claimed Mexico as a colony, as far as I know. In any event, when Mexicans speak of La Independencia, they are thinking of the end of Spanish, not French, rule. That's what the monument El Angel de la Independencia that sits astride Reforma in Mexico City commemorates.

[vetty09]

Originally Posted by Isla Verde

Mexico's independence from Spain was achieved in 1820 after ten years of war. France never claimed Mexico as a colony, as far as I know. In any event, when Mexicans speak of La Independencia, they are thinking of the end of Spanish, not French, rule. That's what the monument El Angel de la Independencia that sits astride Reforma in Mexico City commemorates.

The French-Mexican War is the war in which the French were driven out of most areas of Mexico, but this is part of the Independence, not the independence on its own. At least that is what I learned from my time going to school in Mexico.

[Isla Verde]

Originally Posted by vetty09

The French-Mexican War is the war in which the French were driven out of most areas of Mexico, but this is part of the Independence, not the independence on its own. At least that is what I learned from my time going to school in Mexico.

I'm not going to argue with what you learned in school, obviously. But the major part of gaining independence was the long struggle to defeat the Spanish; the French incursion in Mexico only lasted a few years while the Spanish were here for almost three hundred years. I wonder if the defeat of the French as part of the independence movement is emphasized more in Puebla than in other parts of Mexico,

[stilltraveling]

Originally Posted by vetty09

You could call it that, but in the end it was Puebla that defeated the French which started the movement towards independence. This being what 5 de Mayo derived from.

It has always been more significant in the US than in Mexico. Part of that reason is that General Ignacio Zaragoza, the leader at the Battle of Puebla, was born in Texas when it was still part of Mexico (which it wasn't by the time the first Battle of Puebla was fought). Chicanos latched on to him as their own because it was seen as linked to the war going on in the US at the time.

During the American Civil War, it was believed that had Napoleon been successful at Puebla, he would have aided the American South (which was under a blockade at the time). These new Americans (Chicanos), saw it as part of the American struggle for freedom. It's all pretty convoluted, but history was beginning to accelerate very quickly at that time and the idea of a nation state was even less concrete as it is today. Cinco de Mayo celebrations grew out of the American Civil War and Chicanos of the New West. Needless to say, Mexico was going through its own struggles at the time and May 5th was negated by the French victory a year later, also in Puebla. It was already forgotten by the time Chicanos in the US had already claimed it as significant.

The Battle of Puebla didn't start the movement towards independence. Independence was won 50 years earlier with Miguel Hidalgo. The French incursion into Mexico was very short lived, lasting only about 4 years. I live next door to Maximilian's getaway palace; he really lived it up for awhile. It's now a lovely public garden. Check out Jardin Borda if you're ever in Cuernavaca.

Outside of Puebla, Cinco de Mayo doesn't get much mention. In fact, it doesn't get as much mention in Puebla as it does in California. Still, September 16th doesn't get much play up north. One has to be careful when mixing genes with nationality. History has shown that nationality ultimately cuts across genes. That is why Chicanos aren't Mexican. Mexicans and Chicanos know the difference, but society still sees genes before it sees nationality.

[rpizzica]

History is wonderful, but in today's world 5 Mayo in USA is just another reason to go party and get drunk.
Probably 90% of the people celebrating 5 de Mayo out in a bar don't even know why!

[stilltraveling]

Originally Posted by rpizzica

History is wonderful, but in today's world 5 Mayo in USA is just another reason to go party and get drunk.
Probably 90% of the people celebrating 5 de Mayo out in a bar don't even know why!

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

[Isla Verde]

Originally Posted by stilltraveling

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

Do you think it's a good thing?