Essential reading for gringos

[ptrichmondmike]

As all of you know, those of us whose Spanish was learned from textbooks in high school or college soon realize that we have only been taught a very formal, "official" version of a rich and subtle language. To native speakers, I imagine that we sound awfully stiff, not to mention largely ignorant of the actual day-to-day speech of real people.

I recently discovered Joseph J. Keenan's superb "Breaking Out of Beginner's Spanish," written by a gringo who has lived and worked in Mexico for decades. This book is a feast of "inside information" about the nuances of colloquial Spanish, covering a wide range of idiomatic usage and cultural tips that, once mastered, are sure to favorably impress any Mexican you relate to, formally or informally. Rather than give an in-depth review, I will refer anyone interested to the page on Amazon.com to read the nearly 150 glowing reviews by readers, including both Mexicans and gringos at various levels of proficiency. These reviews are spot-on -- this book is a gold mine.

I got my copy on Kindle for only $10, and believe it may be one of the most important investments I've made toward becoming a happy expat who has the chance to really be comfortable communicating with the people of Mexico. If you learned Spanish the way I did in school, this book is definitely for you.

Highest possible recommendation!

[mickisue1]

Good find!

[Isla Verde]

Originally Posted by ptrichmondmike

As all of you know, those of us whose Spanish was learned from textbooks in high school or college soon realize that we have only been taught a very formal, "official" version of a rich and subtle language. To native speakers, I imagine that we sound awfully stiff, not to mention largely ignorant of the actual day-to-day speech of real people.

Actually, Mexicans tend to be very open and generous with foreigners who attempt to speak their language and don't make judgments about the way we use it. In most cases, they're just pleased that we make any effort at all to speak Spanish instead of expecting them to speak English. I'm not familiar with the Keenan book. Could you give us a few examples of the kind of information he offers to the novice Spanish-speaker? I would hope he doesn't encourage the use of slang and off-color language in an attempt to make you speak "real" Mexican Spanish. That could place you in embarrassing situations, depending, of course, on the Mexican company you keep!

[Ken Wood]

Funny how the human psyche works. I appreciate your thread, and can see myself adding this book to my digital bookshelf, however, it would be solely for the purpose of helping me understand what is being said. I can't come on board with using catchy phrases that I do not come by via natural evolution. If I do not culturally understand the meaning of a quip, I might as well be reading it aloud from the book and not speaking from memory. I am reminded of the three testicle toast from My Big Fat Greek Wedding. I, being the prototype gringo, am OK if I am outed each time I open my mouth. I hope that some day I will be practiced in day to day quips that have been developed through the years, but, until then, I will have to limit myself to the basics I learn by study and street usage. Please don't take this as an indictment of your suggestion. It is not, rather, it is a simply a statement supporting the old different strokes philosophy.

[ptrichmondmike]

Originally Posted by Isla Verde

Actually, Mexicans tend to be very open and generous with foreigners who attempt to speak their language and don't make judgments about the way we use it. In most cases, they're just pleased that we make any effort at all to speak Spanish instead of expecting them to speak English. I'm not familiar with the Keenan book. Could you give us a few examples of the kind of information he offers to the novice Spanish-speaker? I would hope he doesn't encourage the use of slang and off-color language in an attempt to make you speak "real" Mexican Spanish. That could place you in embarrassing situations, depending, of course, on the Mexican company you keep!

There's a short section on vulgar slang, but the author deosn't recommend using it, and he take great pains throughout to steer you toward proper usage of the colloquialisms. I will have to wait until I'm home after work to give you specifics, though.

Yes, Mexicans are more than forgiving toward gringos who at least make an attempt to converse. When I served on the board of the Mexican Cultural Institute of San Diego, my mainly Mexican colleagues affectionately called me "Miguelito," and when I asked why not Miguel, they said -- chuckling --"because you speak baby Spanish." (Board meetings were conducted in an uproarious Spanglish.) I currrently live in a city which has transformed from mainly black to mainly Latino in the past 15 years, and there are some excellent grocery stores carrying a wide range of Mexican products. I always speak rather clumsy Spanish at the meat counter and checkout, and after a few visits I began to get "a little extra" added to my orders. For Christmas last year, the butcher gifted me 3 pounds of my beloved chuletas ahumadas with a cheery "Feliz Navidad."

That said, why NOT learn how people really talk?

[Isla Verde]

Originally Posted by ptrichmondmike

There's a short section on vulgar slang, but the author deosn't recommend using it, and he take great pains throughout to steer you toward proper usage of the colloquialisms. I will have to wait until I'm home after work to give you specifics, though.

Yes, Mexicans are more than forgiving toward gringos who at least make an attempt to converse. When I served on the board of the Mexican Cultural Institute of San Diego, my mainly Mexican colleagues affectionately called me "Miguelito," and when I asked why not Miguel, they said -- chuckling --"because you speak baby Spanish." (Board meetings were conducted in an uproarious Spanglish.) I currrently live in a city which has transformed from mainly black to mainly Latino in the past 15 years, and there are some excellent grocery stores carrying a wide range of Mexican products. I always speak rather clumsy Spanish at the meat counter and checkout, and after a few visits I began to get "a little extra" added to my orders. For Christmas last year, the butcher gifted me 3 pounds of my beloved chuletas ahumadas with a cheery "Feliz Navidad."

That said, why NOT learn how people really talk?

That was a cute joke from your colleagues on the MCI, but, of course, calling you "Miguelito" was essentially a way of showing affection, not a negative comment on your Spanish.

How people "really" talk depends on many factors: geography, age, education, social class,and the social context of the conversation. That's why I tend to teach my students standard American usage, which will be appropriate in most settings and to most of the English-speakers they're likely to meet here or when they travel. I'm looking forward to hearing some specific examples from this book.

[ptrichmondmike]

Originally Posted by Ken Wood

Funny how the human psyche works. I appreciate your thread, and can see myself adding this book to my digital bookshelf, however, it would be solely for the purpose of helping me understand what is being said. I can't come on board with using catchy phrases that I do not come by via natural evolution. If I do not culturally understand the meaning of a quip, I might as well be reading it aloud from the book and not speaking from memory. I am reminded of the three testicle toast from My Big Fat Greek Wedding. I, being the prototype gringo, am OK if I am outed each time I open my mouth. I hope that some day I will be practiced in day to day quips that have been developed through the years, but, until then, I will have to limit myself to the basics I learn by study and street usage. Please don't take this as an indictment of your suggestion. It is not, rather, it is a simply a statement supporting the old different strokes philosophy.

No offense taken, Ken..."whatever floats your boat" is a good maxim to live by.

[circle110]

As Isla Verde says, I'd be curious to know what kind of expressions he includes in the book. Can you give any examples?

For the last three years Spanish has been my daily household language so I am around it quite a bit and I tend to pick up many expressions simply through exposure but I still find that people chuckle when I use some expression that is too colloquial. I made my wife laugh just today at breakfast by saying "porfa" instead of "por favor".

People tell me that they like listening to my textbook Spanish, that it fits well with my mild accent (I didn't start to learn until age 42 so the accent is never going to go away completely). When I say something too Mexican or colloquial they say it jumps out and sounds funny.

I agree with Ken Wood that a book like this would be great to learn new expressions so you can mentally file them away for future listening or reading comprehension but care is needed when trying to include them in your own speech. Sometimes using them has the opposite effect and makes you sound even more "extranjero"!

[mickisue1]

Learning a language as an adult, no matter the method, can lead to some "interesting" interactions.

My son in law to be, who teaches language in his native Italy, told me that my pronunciation was good, but my grammar is horrible. Not unexpected, as the bulk of the Italian I've learned is from listening to CDs, not talking to real people.

I took it as a compliment, anyway.

[ptrichmondmike]

Originally Posted by circle110

As Isla Verde says, I'd be curious to know what kind of expressions he includes in the book. Can you give any examples?

For the last three years Spanish has been my daily household language so I am around it quite a bit and I tend to pick up many expressions simply through exposure but I still find that people chuckle when I use some expression that is too colloquial. I made my wife laugh just today at breakfast by saying "porfa" instead of "por favor".

People tell me that they like listening to my textbook Spanish, that it fits well with my mild accent (I didn't start to learn until age 42 so the accent is never going to go away completely). When I say something too Mexican or colloquial they say it jumps out and sounds funny.

I agree with Ken Wood that a book like this would be great to learn new expressions so you can mentally file them away for future listening or reading comprehension but care is needed when trying to include them in your own speech. Sometimes using them has the opposite effect and makes you sound even more "extranjero"!

Lol...I had no idea my enthusiastic little post would solicit frowning caveats.

The book doesn't teach you how to "talk like a native," nor does it replace hands-on learning. What it does is show you shades of meaning/emphasis among myriad related words and phrases which textbook learning doesn't cover.

As I suggested, it's very easy to check the reviews on Amazon to see what many, many others think about it, including native Mexicans.