Why do so many people think the only reason expats live in Mexico is for economic

[AlanMexicali]

Originally Posted by Trailrunner

What a good question, AlanMexicali! I fell in love with this country and its people sometime back in the sixties when I first set foot on it and have been traveling and exploring it ever since until I could finally have enough steady income to live here full-time. The fact that I choose to live in an area that has what is supposed to be the second best climate in the world and the economy of this country makes it possible for me to have a better lifestyle than if I was still in California or anywhere in the US is a perk. Not the reason I am here.

Unfortunately, I'd say something like 90/95% of the foreigners around the area where I live are only here because it's 'cheap and warm'. Economic refugees, and I feel for their plight, but I avoid them like the plague. Many are angry and arrogant, most never learn even a conversational level of the language and resent that Mexicans don't speak their language, nor do many of them involve themselves in the Mexican culture. They embarrass me.

Currently, there is a small group of foreigners involved in a "fight" with the padre of the pueblo I live in and are asking for a human rights lawyer to get involved - for what I do not know. However, I am beginning to be asked by my Mexican neighbors if I am involved in this or "molestado" by the padre too. sigh

Agree with PieGrande: "If you cannot make friends with the Mexican people, you will not be happy in Mexico." I'd take it a step further and say. . .if you have no intention of making friends with the Mexican people - please, don't come!

The point you make about economic refuges has some merit. The point about living here for the perk of having a better lifestyle on a budget is for all except those expats that work here to earn a living. The point some do not intend to learn the language to a conversational level and integrate into the culture is possibly a matter of preference/age and not really simple to understand. It might be that these expats feel isolation is better for them and have a fellowship with others doing the same thing. I read on the Chapala.com board also and do feel a sense of some posting there are being overly judgmental and critical of Mexico's way of doing business, and cry babies that things are not like back home in the US or Canada. The term "Grumpy Old Men/Women" comes to mind.

So your final point of some not wanting to integrate into Mexican society and not understanding and being able to communication in Spanish and not watching from a more insider view of what Mexico "is all about" has them outside looking in and not understanding the culture except reading books about it and really alienating themselves. This is not necessarily bad for them but does bring a few laughs my way when they state their so called "facts" that this is the way Mexico really is, when in fact their facts are really their own judgmental preconceived notions [prejudice] of the way they see things looking from the outside in and not knowing anything about Mexicans and only comparing the Mexican way of doing business to the US or Canadian way, through ignorance. They can read all the books they want about Mexico but will not understand. This is just my experience and I may be way off base.

Your other point about the climate is a given for all.

[FHBOY]

Originally Posted by AlanMexicali

The point you make about economic refuges has some merit.

Your other point about the climate is a given for all.

Continuing in that vein, there is no doubt that everyone has their own reasons to move to Mexico/become an expat/snowbird. Those who do not want to integrate into the community and then find a like thinking community have their place also. But, when people of that thinking begin to criticize, exploit and demean the culture and the people that is where they draw unfavorable pictures of NOBer's and then in some cases become the NOB stereotype, that is a problem.

In my community in the states there are those whose actions in the day-to-day make it tough on the entire community. They are rude, they treat store clerks and service people like peons, they argue over pennies in a supermarket, they believe that they have the "right" to do anything and that you have no right to do anything else. They are a minority, but to strangers in the neighborhood, they are the one's people remember. And further, those clerks and service people begin to reflexively respond to anyone who comes into their establishment in the neighborhood in the same manner, deservedly or not. So you see, it it not just south of the border where it happens, these are attributes developed north of the border and imported.

I hold no breach for you wanting to come down to your little Anglo enclave, live in your Anglo centric world, that is like a "vacation" that lasts forever, but just like on a vacation, your view of reality of day-to-day living is suspended. BTW that is not a wrong thing to do - it is just not the way I think. It is sort of like a 365 day cruise: What happens when you hit the final dock?

As I have said repeatedly, those of you/us who wish to make Mexico our home need to work hard to make sure we are welcomed, and in many cases these people make that job doubly hard. Are we going to change either the perpetrator or the victim of this type of behavior? I doubt it, but to make our living better, we have to keep on trying.

[Side note - there is a great poem that I have pasted here: The Drunken Driver Has the Right of Way - I hope you enjoy it:

'The Drunken Driver Has the Right Of Way'
by Ethan Coen

The loudest have the final say,
The wanton win, the rash hold sway,
The realist's rules of order say
The drunken driver has the right of way.

The Kubla Khan can butt in line;
The biggest brute can take what's mine;
When heavyweights break wind, that's fine;
No matter what a judge might say,
The drunken driver has the right of way.

The guiltiest feel free of guilt;
Who care not, bloom; who worry, wilt;
Plans better laid are rarely built
For forethought seldom wins the day;
The drunken driver has the right of way.

The most attentive and unfailing
Carefulness is unavailing
Wheresoever fools are flailing;
Wisdom there is held at bay;,
The drunken driver has the right of way.

De jure is de facto's slave;
The most foolhardy beat the brave;
Brass routs restraint; low lies high's grave;
When conscience leads you, it's astray;
The drunken driver has the right of way.

It's only the naivest who'll
Deny this, that the reckless rule;
When facing an oncoming fool
The practiced and sagacious say
Watch out — one side — look sharp — gang way.

However much you plan and pray,
Alas, alack, tant pis, oy vey,
Now — heretofore — til Judgment Day,
The drunken driver has the right of way.

Excerpted from 'The Drunken Driver Has The Right Of Way' by Ethan Coen. Excerpted by permission of Crown Publishing Group/Random House

[AlanMexicali]

Originally Posted by FHBOY

Continuing in that vein, there is no doubt that everyone has their own reasons to move to Mexico/become an expat/snowbird. Those who do not want to integrate into the community and then find a like thinking community have their place also. But, when people of that thinking begin to criticize, exploit and demean the culture and the people that is where they draw unfavorable pictures of NOBer's and then in some cases become the NOB stereotype, that is a problem.

In my community in the states there are those whose actions in the day-to-day make it tough on the entire community. They are rude, they treat store clerks and service people like peons, they argue over pennies in a supermarket, they believe that they have the "right" to do anything and that you have no right to do anything else. They are a minority, but to strangers in the neighborhood, they are the one's people remember. And further, those clerks and service people begin to reflexively respond to anyone who comes into their establishment in the neighborhood in the same manner, deservedly or not. So you see, it it not just south of the border where it happens, these are attributes developed north of the border and imported.

I hold no breach for you wanting to come down to your little Anglo enclave, live in your Anglo centric world, that is like a "vacation" that lasts forever, but just like on a vacation, your view of reality of day-to-day living is suspended. BTW that is not a wrong thing to do - it is just not the way I think. It is sort of like a 365 day cruise: What happens when you hit the final dock?

As I have said repeatedly, those of you/us who wish to make Mexico our home need to work hard to make sure we are welcomed, and in many cases these people make that job doubly hard. Are we going to change either the perpetrator or the victim of this type of behavior? I doubt it, but to make our living better, we have to keep on trying.

You know I have lived in San Diego for over 30 years as well as Mexico since separating and then divorcing a Mexican wife and remarrying my current Mexican National wife. When in SD I have to think it is a great place; liberal, laid back compared to the north east US/Canada and a vacation spot also. When in Mexicali it is a family orientated and now industrial city but with roots in agriculture and beef raising. In San Luis Potosi it is an industrial city, 1,400,000 but a very old colonial city developed by rich mine owners and strong past governors with influence in Mexico City for 400 or more years and culturally advanced even compared to SD. Mexicali is backward culturally. TJ is somewhere in between Mexicali and SD culturally. This all takes adapting to.

Adapting is hard but not impossible for me. You can see things with rose colored glasses or you can see things with a magnifying glass or anywhere in between. Good intentions go a long way in adapting, in my opinion. If a person, at any age and in any condition has good intentions I don't care what language you speak or what you look like or what your status social/ economically you are, you will succeed in all things you desire to do or become. If you want to be a happy camper just be realistic in you daily endeavors and show your true good intentions. Most people will pick it up and feel you are worth knowing and then worth helping.

[m55vette]

My wife and I chose Mexico for lots of reasons other than the lower cost of living. We love the culture, the ceremony, the colors, the food, the slower pace, the pleasant people, the activities, the beauty. Yeah, it is nice things cost less, but when we are home in Mexico we feel alive.

[kcowan]

In my visits to Ajijic, I found it to be a gringo enclave. Not Chapala though nor Jocapetic.

PV offers the choice of either gringo or Mexican. It depends on what you choose. Stay off the beach if you want Mexican. It is a tourist zone and many of the tourists are from GDL and the city.

During Semana Santa and Christmas, the beaches become truly Mexican with tourists. But to live like a local, you have to live off the gringo path. The prices went up a lot because of demand. That stopped in 2007 after the US RE meltdown. So to report PV as a gringo location is just as bad as reporting Ajijic as one. Based on a limited sample.

If you want Mexico, go to Pitallal. Or any of the other colonias more that 6 blocks from the beach. You can buy a nice 3BR villa for $100k. More rustico starts at $40k.

[FHBOY]

Originally Posted by kcowan

In my visits to Ajijic, I found it to be a gringo enclave. Not Chapala though nor Jocapetic...If you want Mexico, go to Pitallal. Or any of the other colonias more that 6 blocks from the beach. You can buy a nice 3BR villa for $100k. More rustico starts at $40k.

We can only speak first hand from our experiences, mine is different than yours and that provides perspective especially when neither of us is right or wrong, nor are we trying to prove a point. Thank you for your observations.

[PieGrande]

Originally Posted by Trailrunner

Well, I still don't know exactly what the 'beef' is, but what I'm hearing is the priest is using a loudspeaker to say mass or for prayers and it's probably early in the morning. I live only a few blocks from the church and I cannot hear it.

Vamos a ver.

If so, that was on my short list. Interesting.

[makaloco]

Originally Posted by AlanMexicali

The point some do not intend to learn the language to a conversational level and integrate into the culture is possibly a matter of preference/age and not really simple to understand. It might be that these expats feel isolation is better for them and have a fellowship with others doing the same thing. I read on the Chapala.com board also and do feel a sense of some posting there are being overly judgmental and critical of Mexico's way of doing business, and cry babies that things are not like back home in the US or Canada. The term "Grumpy Old Men/Women" comes to mind.

It's easy enough to sympathize with expats who try to learn a language and aren't very good at it, but I find it very difficult to relate to those who don't at least make the effort when living in a foreign country. Mexicans are pretty forgiving of even dreadful attempts at Spanish, yet I've been at gatherings where Mexicans who aren't fluent in English are virtually ignored, or worse, forced to listen to criticisms of their country and people (many understand English far better than they speak). In general, here and elsewhere, I've noticed that expats in groups tend to slide pretty easily into "us vs. them" mode. Many of these same folks in smaller numbers are perfectly good company, love the place and people, and would never be knowingly rude. I'm sure the majority are totally unaware of their behavior, but it's one reason I avoid living among or hanging out much with groups of English speakers abroad. For all I know, I may be guilty on occasion, too, though I sure hope not.

[Isla Verde]

Originally Posted by makaloco

. . . I've been at gatherings where Mexicans who aren't fluent in English are virtually ignored, or worse, forced to listen to criticisms of their country and people (many understand English far better than they speak). In general, here and elsewhere, I've noticed that expats in groups tend to slide pretty easily into "us vs. them" mode. Many of these same folks in smaller numbers are perfectly good company, love the place and people, and would never be knowingly rude. I'm sure the majority are totally unaware of their behavior, but it's one reason I avoid living among or hanging out much with groups of English speakers abroad. For all I know, I may be guilty on occasion, too, though I sure hope not.

I haven't found this to be true with my expat friends in Mexico City. Most of them are English teachers and are younger than me, in their 30s and 40s and early 50s, and most of them speak Spanish quite well or at least are attempting to learn the language. For the most part, they love living in Mexico and don't spend their time together complaining about Mexico. And I can't imagine them ignoring Mexican guests whose English isn't fluent, some of whom may be their colleagues or spouses or close friends!

[makaloco]

Originally Posted by Isla Verde

I haven't found this to be true with my expat friends in Mexico City. Most of them are English teachers and are younger than me, in their 30s and 40s and early 50s, and most of them speak Spanish quite well or at least are attempting to learn the language. For the most part, they love living in Mexico and don't spend their time together complaining about Mexico. And I can't imagine them ignoring Mexican guests whose English isn't fluent, some of whom may be their colleagues or spouses or close friends!

Yes, of course, and I wasn't referring to circles of friends and colleagues with common interests, but larger gatherings where people aren't well acquainted and have little if anything in common other than speaking English and being in the same foreign country. I was trying to avoid saying that most of my experiences with this sort of thing have been at social events held in "expat colonies". Not all, but most.