Hi all, was hoping someone in France could take a look at these sites and tell me if they are even close to right.

Average salary Rennes - 35000 (206.604 habitants)
Average income per household* in the city in 2009 2.626 € net / month
As they say below, this is after cotisations but before tax if I am reading that right? It seems rather low considering the cost of housing food / living.

Also does this seem accurate enough to trust?
Convert a French gross salary into a net salary and vice versa.

expatistan.com
Cost of Living

The income per household* indicated in our pages corresponds to "activity income" i.e. the total amount of money (salaries, rents, benefits) made by the household excepted money from interests.
SalaireMoyen.com also provides the salary by socio-professional category for the biggest cities: those salaries are net of social charges as (displayed at the bottom of the pay slips and includes bonuses). whatever that means?

The 23% nick for "cotisations" seems about right to me. (I've usually said 20 - 25% and that falls well within the +/- 3% they mention on the site.

Salaries in France are much lower than in the US - but given that the net salaries include your medical, retirement and other "benefits" costs, you find that you spend your money in France on very different things.

Take, for example, the average doctor's salary in France. They seem to get by on about twice the national average salary whereas in the US doctors make more like four times the average salary (which is probably higher to begin with).
Cheers,
Bev

IIRC median US household income is $47K including a figure for employer provided health care of 10+K. Back that out and cash median income is well under 40K. At current exchange rates that's about €30K

I remember trying to do a study about cost of living and quality of life Us vs France. It is incredibly complicated. It depends on your personal situation, field and all. What income you have, how long you will stay in france etc.. Some benefit of high taxes dont come to you unless you stay long

French salaries are much lower than in the US but there are hidden things to take into account:
5 weeks or more vacation, a different life/work balance in some cases.
ticket restaurant (company pays half, you pay the other, you choose to get it or not, get one per day worked. can be used at restaurant or for food too, often ends up with something like 50 -60 euros of food paid by employer per month)
Health care: your cost are drastically reduced by having access to social security plus mutuelle from employer. (some you pay for though)
Able to save less for rainy days since your healthcare is covered better (you still to save for reitrement etc..)
Taxes: you pay in the system but I was surprised to see that french taxes were not that much more for a couple with no kids and no home than in the US (sometimes less depending on income). However, if you have kids, schooling, university and other things are taken care of. Subsidized classes like dance, soccer, etc... available at city center etc.. You still pay but it can be less costly sometimes.
for Paris: 50% of your carte orange for transport is paid out to you by your employer (by law).
Price of certain items are higher, but being an expat you can buy them when you visit home.
Price of other food is cheaper: if you consume a lot of european food back home as an example.
Phone/TV/Cell phone is way cheaper in france. we pay 47 euros a month for high speed internet, tv, unlimited national and international phone calls, and a call phone plan for hubby.

I comped gas and electricty prices from chicago to south of france. it was slightly more in the US. but water was included in my rental, when now i have to pay for it. and i don't know yet how much energy my appliances/heater/AC here use.

Finally, the cost of life also depends on where you are and what you do. Life being less consumerist( to a certain extent here), you might end up spending less altogether. Some widely available things in the US are quite costly here compared to incomes, since they are not mainstream.
Other are more available . With low cost airlines, I find we can travel more here, even if it is pricier areas. you can take 3 days and go for a weekend somewhere not too far yet "foreign". Could not really do that as much in Chicago.

Also. There is a lot less variation in salaries in find in france than in the US. Minimum wage or a little bit above wage is quite common for a good portion of the population. That might drive down your average income. As an expat, if you come for a job, you would usually have a chance to have a higher paying job.

Wow - that's a great overview of the whole "cost of living" issue! Thanks.

Frankly, average household income figures mean very little if you're considering whether or not YOU could live anywhere in particular. Depends on your training, experience and overall ability to find a job in your line of work.

The US figures, too, are often skewed because of the huge disparity of incomes over there. The higher highs and the tendency for those who are well off to cluster in certain areas drives up the averages. In France, the highs aren't nearly as high, and I suspect the lows are not quite so low, either (given SMIC and various safety net benefits).
Cheers,
Bev

Wow thank you very much Kirikara, very informative.

The one question I guess I should have asked though is we are looking at the Rennes area since I have family there, and with an avg net income of 2.626 € and normal houses (were looking just looking at Chantepie now for giggles) around Rennes are 300.000 on the low end. How can anyone afford these homes? 300.000€ is a monthly mortgage of 1700€+ that leaves 900€ a month for everything else. Is that doable with the price of food etc.. thats not fogetting the 15% taxes you have to pay at the end of the year. Here in the US I plan on my mortgage being maybe 1/3 of my monthly income.

I'm really just trying to be clear on this for my wife and son as I just got started in a good career here in the US which I can xfer to France but on avg the pay seems to be 3/4 what it is here after the the US>euro exchange, and shes apprehensive about going backwards. Going rates I've found for my position are 60k€ gross which on the surface seems good considering the avg pay I've found above, but is definately lower than US rates and at odds with home prices, clothes, foods, essence, etc, I've found so far.

You all don't realise how coddled you've been. In the UK in the late 80's we reckoned on 60-70% of our net income going out on our mortgage - at least in the Home Counties. And yes, that did mean we were substantially poorer off in terms of disposable income than our supposedly-poverty-stricken northern cousins.

And to rub salt into that major wound, our friends in Lancashire reported lower electricity tariffs than we paid, mega-lower rates, and that they could happily get a taxi of an evening to travel the 5 miles or so into town and back, and go for a meal for 2 and have change out of a tenner. For a tenner, we wouldn't even have had a taxi company answer the phone!!!!

AND THEY claimed hard-done-by!

The bottom line is where your priorities lie and where you're prepared to make the compromises/sacrifices: to each their own.

and btw, our crippling mortgage (at the then rate of around 14%pa interest) and the astronomical rise in house prices in the UK enabled me to sell up at an extremely healthy profit to buy here outright, so it was a good move.

H

The rule goes the same way for housing her: 1/3 of your income. But here is what i know:
When renting that is definitely true. Most landlord/agency ask that you make 3 times the rent monthly.
When buying and according to the director of my bank I met about mortgages, she said that it depends... It is 1/3 if your income is low, but the more money you make (vs the average) the more flexible they are. Obviously not up to 70%

60K, would give you 3500 euros net a month on 13 months (double month in december). I counted 23% monthly charges and rounded down 60 euros for the mutuelle fees. Now with that kind of salary, you will be cadre (well frankly even without nowadays). So some charges might be higher. If you don't intend on staying, I don't think that is an advantage but could be wrong. What you could buy as far as housing would be depending on the downpayment you can put down.

(mortgage rates: Baromètre des taux immobiliers - Meilleurtaux.com)

It is a tough call. I would definitely consider the long term benefit (or not) in this move. For your family (an experience abroad can be great), for your career.. and also whether you would ever consider staying long term. Are you moving for a different quality of life? a different lifestyle, work/life balance etc..


The trouble is, comparing US salaries and French salaries is like apple and orange. 60k is definitely a good salary for french standard. But when just doing number you fail to take the whole picture into account (also you might be able to negotiate extra benefit for transferring, like the company paying private international school, tickets to go home to see the family, etc..etc..) It all depends on what you are trying to achieve and what you might get. I am not as familiar with the expat being transferred situation as far as benefits (are you a US employee, what about healhcare, US social security etc..)

I do know Rennes is a pretty cool city according to a few friends from there.

You could also negotiate 60K with a few benefit like a company car with paid gas, flight tickets to go back once a year with the fam, possibly them paying to send your kids to bilingual school (if there is one around), a moving package (to pay for moving, real estate angency fees, relocation)etc.. it might make it more worth it.

I think 3500 euros a month for a family in Rennes is definitely doable.; But it depends what you have in the US. 100K in Chicago and 100K in Platteville, Wi give you a very different lifestyle.

Given the choice of 60Keuros where i am at in the Var and $100K in Evanston where we were from, I would definitely choose the Var with a couple trips to Evanston a year (because we do miss it). Our lifestyle would be a whole lot better. Housing would be way nicer. (no house in Evanston for under 450K) But i am not in your shoes, I don't how and where you live,what you spend and what is important.

But i do wish you good luck!

Finally for housing you can look up:
annoncesjaunes.com
seloger
explorimmo

Food:
use the website of chronodrive, casino, intermarché, carrefour:
Le magasin en ligne des Supermarchés et Hypermarchés Casino
(use a random zipcode for rennes) to see food prices.

Clothing:
You will hate prices here. You will want to shop back home.

tv/internet:
Orange, Free, SFR
are a few on the big companies. Free has a reputation for low prices but have had issues with their landline services.

Gas:
prices are higher but you just need to choose the right car. You will drive less long distance. We have a small compact car. Fits 4. Fiat punto 5 doors. Fuel consumption is 64mpg with diesel motor.

Hi Kirikara, thanks for the response not sure how I missed it. A lot of good information! I do have one question

I dont understand what you mean but I believe this is an important sentence to understand.

I am a US citizen but I am (still) working on my french citizen (consulate in NY is slow) my father and every one before him was from france so I am applying "jus sanguinis" (thanks to Bev for bringing this to my attention). Our thought is moving to france forever so that we can enjoy and also offer our son a life of relative peace compared to the insanity of the US and all the other comforts France offers. I don't know if I can xfer this job to the France office but my qualifications are industry standards and are globally recognized. As for comparison our cell phones are $105 a month for basic cell phone no internet or data. Dish TV (w/HBO) with 1.5 mb internet and phone is $115 a month, Electric is $200-300 a month we have well/fosse. But you summed it clear to me "60k is definitely a good salary for french standard".

Thank you agian, I am starting to search up the links you gave me .

Well, your "communications" costs should come WAY down when you move to France!

These new "cut rate" mobile phone plans run 20€ a month for unlimited calls within France and to 40 or so countries (land lines only in Europe, but US and Canada both land lines and mobile phones). Includes up to 3 Gb of data usage if you have a "smart" phone. If you combine with Internet (and possibly TV) access via a "box" you're talking 35 - 50€ a month for the package. Or, if you prefer satellite TV, you can get a basic package for 25 to 30€ a month. Don't know what Sky or other English language satellite would cost, but after a while, you lose interest in television over here. The local stuff is kind of dull (except for the VM broadcasts of US and UK favorites) and there really are lots of other things to do with your time.

Electric depends on lots of things, but we have fairly heavy usage (due to our business in the house as well as a bank of computers that are generally always on) and our bills run about 160 to 220€ a month. Electric heating could add significantly to that, though.

Like any system, it takes a while to learn how to work the system to your own advantage. Expect to "overspend" a bit at first until you learn where the bargains are.
Cheers,
Bev