Ofena in Abruzzo

[Barry]

Originally Posted by pugwashington

Thanks for the link will check it out.

I know what you are saying about fees and not being able to back out - it should work in theory - but still did not stop them from trying or for the notary wanting cash payment. I paid for a survey asking for details of work needed to make it safe amoungst other things - but got a very negligent survey - conservative estimate 90000 eu now to pay to get house i thought I had bought. Surveyors insurance although they admit negligence want to pay less than a third due to some wierd calculation they do re final value of house and purchase cost. So lawyer now needed. Same the world over. I thought if i used a registered surveyor that in the event i was faced with extra costs I would be covered - nice in theory different in practice. i also had quake insurance again - nice in theory different in practice - UK company now aguing about that too.

Pam

Pam

Yes I know what you mean. It is always easier in hindsight to know how to do something.
When you stop to think about it though these houses are not really worth anything. They were built by people like my great grandfather who would have had his brothers and cousins help him put it up using the rocks from their fields and wood from the forest and probably no purchased material at all. It was all they could afford to do and if they had money they would have built something a lot better. I look at the costs they are talking about to repair them and can't help wondering if it would be a lot cheaper to knock them down and rebuild with the same methods and incorporating proper reinforcing to withstand earthquakes. I'am not an expert on designing for earthquakes but I have worked for a geotechnical and materials testing firm all my life and cannot see how chaining and pouring a concrete collar around the wall makes the structure significantly more earthquake resistent. It would take major steel reinforcing within the walls both horizontally and vertically. Major reinforcing and bracing around all windows and doors and probably proper foundations to get an order of magnitude improvement in the buildings ability to survive.
Are you part of an Aggregato?

[Barry]

I see you are part of Aggregato 026. Have you submitted your project yet? Are they proposing a rebuild?

[pugwashington]

Originally Posted by Barry

I see you are part of Aggregato 026. Have you submitted your project yet? Are they proposing a rebuild?

No still waiting. See http://www.istructe.org/eefit/files/...Earthquake.pdf for why they are recommending the work on the concrete collar and various other work. Seems the houses that had this kind of work done survived but ones without didnt - for sure they wont survive a japanese type quake but probably will survive ones typical of the area.

My house was built by a builder - one reason I bought it - it looked as if he cared - the other idots who had the house after him errected the 'tower' that has made my house cat e. also he punched holes in gable ends therby weakening some parts of the house. Otherwise its pretty good dimensions length 3x the width (ideal for earthquake safety), Not too tall - good for quake safety - built mostly on rock. I think he knew what he was doing for the times he lived in.

My worry is my neighbour who has tons of money - thinks he knows everything - poohood me when I wanted to get earthquake safety stuff done on the house first - wont listen to anything anyone says that isnt what he wants to hear gets to appoint the architect and engineer. They do what he asks - so far they have put in bigger windows into the gabel ends of his house, (illegally) wacked another great hole into another supporting wall. (given the type of build even putting in an airconditioning vent into those walls seriously weakens it). His architect and engineer failed to notice huge cracks in my walls that his bathroom extension is resting on. failed to notice huge crack from top to bottom in one of his gabel ends, failed to notice that his incredibly heavey and expensive marbe staircase is coming through walls that are so thin into my kitchen - all at very weak spot in house and a hot spot for earthquake. His house now has huge damage to it. They wont do the work that I have been told by another engineer needs to be done as they would loose face. namely removing his 2000 eu bathroom extension from illegally built room in corner of gable end of his house and mine. Once they did eventually see what I was going on about - I have to say they did look shocked - but I do worry that I am not there watching everything like a hawk. They do now occasionaly listen to me as opposed to dismissing me as someone who is an idiot. However have decided not to get stressed but to eventually get an engineer i do trust to look over their plans when they do finally have a project. Wont go down well but I do need to be reassured that their proposals are safe. I know there are many ways to do things and that different people have different ideas and that costs always come into it. I do think though that the costs that are being quoted it would be better to rebuild from the start and have new building that look like the old.

Pam

[flawed]

Originally Posted by pugwashington

there is an expat offering help - Judy fell foul of him. Gianni told me tales of his living in other peoples homes without their knowledge. Part of the Candida HAI mafia. I dont know the ins and outs of it but Judy certainly was not happy with what happened in her house. In part I think it is people who do not know what they are doing thinking they can be project managers and make a living.

I would also agree with the advice re notaries after what I heard from Clair. My experience was he wanted paying in cash and pocketed a large sum tax free which did not impress me. I still dont know if the property has been registered with the land registery or how I find out - task for next visit. Clairs notary same as mine and yours I suspect - tried to get several thousand pounds out of her after the event and tried various underhand means to do so. she felt he was unjustified in wanting the money. he has however found debts against many properties recommended by HAI agents so he has some good sides and is not all bad.

One word of caution re buying in Italy if you find that when you get to the notaries office to sign the sellers try to up the price thinking you have gone to so much effort to get there they can get away with putting the sqeeze on - walk out. it happened to a freind of mine where one of the sellers wanted a 3000 eu fee for coming over from Rome to sign the documents. Turned out he was a relative of the agent. So who knows what was going on there. same thing if they try to up the price after you make a verbal agreement to buy.

Hey Pam same deal with us, We were given an outline by HAI of how we were to pay which included a large cash sum which seemed to get divided up at the table.
I must check with the notary when we are there. He said he had to send the deed away to register, and that it would come back to him to hold, because he said the government would prefer he held it, and acted as a point of contact. I have been meaning to chase this up. You have me worried now!

[Barry]

Don't eat the lamb or sheep!
They found Encefalopatie Spongifomi in one of Domenico Mucciante's sheep.

[the duncs]

Originally Posted by flawed

Hey Pam same deal with us, We were given an outline by HAI of how we were to pay which included a large cash sum which seemed to get divided up at the table.
I must check with the notary when we are there. He said he had to send the deed away to register, and that it would come back to him to hold, because he said the government would prefer he held it, and acted as a point of contact. I have been meaning to chase this up. You have me worried now!

Jeeze this sounds more and more dodgey by the minute. We have now booked to come over in July to look for a renovation project. Having been warned of buying in Ofena we are broadening the net and staying nearer Chieti for a week.
I am still torn by conflicting thoughts: the shear dodgeyness of almost the whole purchase system & the earthquake damage classification - and on the other side me being in probably a much better position than most (Chartered Engineer and I have built a couple of houses).
I guess I'll have to get a feel for things when over there. Sounds like we need a 'trust' network where you can name the individuals that are good or bad. Sounds like it could be a lopsided list!
Andy

[italy]

part of the problem with property searches are forums.. is there a plural like fori... because they are peopled with "advice" which is often trusted because its in our native language it seems safer to follow.. to be honest this forum has a very good system that means you have to have a paid subscription to add your business.. other forums have no such system so that either casual advice.. about knowing a house for sale and avoid estate agents but ask me.. or even scouts for various big agencies posting as private individuals.. it all happens and how you work out who is genuine or not is difficult if not impossible..

as has been revealed before with someone who thought they could make my thoughts on buying or not.. which areas to look at .. or whatever.. its obvious that i live in abruzzo and have some interest in property.. but i have also chosen not to try and promote what i do but offer advice which to my mind might well be construed as negative but i choose to see it as a balance against others that choose a route of ignoring all the common knowledge here in Italy about certain areas and certain activities to sort of convince people that life in Italy.. in my case Abruzzo is heaven on earth..

its not true and my wish would be that papers like il centro.. were published in English so that people could get a good feel for a place and its ups and downs to make a more informed choice..

i am something of a sponge as regards getting to grips with the problems of living in Abruzzo although its also difficult to follow all problems.. i use facebook a lot.. another very good source for abruzzo related problems as many of the italian focus groups or protesters use it and you learn an awful lot about local problems.. its funny here that you can live a few kms away from a problem and never hear of it...

the L'Aquila earthquake revealed in a tragic and well published way the truth that was denied by the plethora of agencies selling in the L'Aquila province that there was a consideration in purchasing there that by law registered estate agents have to inform clients of..the seismic risks.. many of these agencies were not even registered or legally allowed to conduct house sales..

they are now crawling back onto the internet as memories fade and they will sell anything and everything to unsuspecting buyers explaining away the cheap property as the famous phrase " its undiscoverd " is brought to the fore..as a reason to rush in and buy before the hoards arrive... nothing in any european country is secret if its not got a standard market price there is always a reason.. generally bad for your health and wallet...

i see you mention Chieti and my thoughts on this are that many years ago property was being sold there with denials of a seismic risk... and since L'Aquila this has been played on even more.. however should you buy a property there and then find out that its zoned as seismic class 1 .. the most dangerous areas.. then you do have recourse via the courts of suing the agency who even if verbally denying the existence of a seismic problem miss-old you a property.. i say this because it doesnt matter what i say people then start denying and or attacking my words because they have an interest in denying truth...

so all comunes if you look at wiki in italian list there seismic ratings.. you have to swithch to the italian version and many of the areas popular with foriegn buyers who often choose based on cheap property are in these zones as the market price here is governed by knowledge of problems ..nothing to do with being undiscovered ..but market forces based on sales to italians

from more obvious forces to do with earthquake risks to less well known chemical pollutions such as Bussi and the largest chemical waste dump in Italy to be found polluting all the drinking water and the surrounding areas of the pescara valley... many ex pats say prices are low due to the fact that Italians will not buy in the hills or remote areas.. a fallacy.. Italians do buy lots of rural properties 100 times more involved than non italians... many have city homes and rural retreats much like other countries in europe and consider how close we are to Rome .. Teramo is just 150 km from the capital.. bologna just a few hours drive.. many people from the north.. we have clients from milan that are chooisng to escape city life for their children to live a more relaxed life here in abruzzo because it has good connections and good prices.. often maintaining their work in the city.. look at all the flights from pescara milan..

these buyers are very knowledgeable often having an Abruzzo background in their families.. they are more fussy than non italian buyers and no one can pull the wool over their eyes because they have easy access to the knowledge base that seems so hard for non italians to use.. and they buy in all areas.. from coast to mountains but with care over where they are spending their money and locating their family in the sense that they are not about to buy a property in Abruzzo that they know cannot be re-sold if in the future plans go wrong.. or move from a polluted city to an area that has even higher pollution.. or buy a property in a red zoned area because it has high risk of flooding.. or one where there is a significantly higher risk of seismic activity.. the zone 1 areas..

if using an agency to purchase wherever.. the thing to ask before even booking a visit is a copy of the plans of the house, a vision of the ownership... visura catastale.. it will list owners and verification in writing from the agency that they have a mandate, a contract that will give them the right to sell.. ask for that on each property you see on the internet and you will soon narrow down your choices because about 90 % of them will have no rights to sell or the property will have not been for ale with them or anyone else..

this is so much easier than spending days on wasted visits that you will be taken on by many agencies that sometimes even charge you for the privilege.. it will mean that a lot of your emails will remain unanswered because they are looking for sheep not clients that will accept all they are told or visit abruzzo on a promise.. how many times have you chosen properties to vist and when you arrive in Abruzzo not been shown one of the advertised properties.. for some feeble excuse.. and been taken to several others which do not meet your needs..

anyway .. please feel free to ask more questions.. i understand italian property law i believe extremely well ... i work with it every day.. and i work with many other italian agencies and see how they work .. which at first surprised me.. because they are efficient and dare i say almost honest by comparison to so many of the rogue agencies that are cited here..

there are also other things which make me cringe.. there are no longer any fixed charges for agencies to insist on.. we are free to charge what we want.. we often have fees of 1 % charged to people with have mandates to sell with and the buyers fee is negotiable too based on each property and the amount of work that has o be done to verify the property for the sale.. in fact if you dispute an agencies right to their payment it will be decided in an arbitration court and at that stage it will be set by the camber of commerce figures which will be between 2 and 3 per cent.. thats the only fixed figure that in disputes that the entitlement figure if the agency wins..

[pugwashington]

Originally Posted by the duncs

Jeeze this sounds more and more dodgey by the minute. We have now booked to come over in July to look for a renovation project. Having been warned of buying in Ofena we are broadening the net and staying nearer Chieti for a week.
I am still torn by conflicting thoughts: the shear dodgeyness of almost the whole purchase system & the earthquake damage classification - and on the other side me being in probably a much better position than most (Chartered Engineer and I have built a couple of houses).
I guess I'll have to get a feel for things when over there. Sounds like we need a 'trust' network where you can name the individuals that are good or bad. Sounds like it could be a lopsided list!
Andy

I would still have a good look all around the area. Including Ofena. get a feel for where places are what you like doing what you need etc etc. A shop and a bar close to hand for us anyway was important as well as post office. We didnt mind a 1 hour hike to the beach - they are not much fun for me in the summer but I also wanted to be not too far away from some civilisation.

All houses are a renovation projects - just that some look more that way than others. There is a nice little house - no roof for sale in Ofena for 25,000 eu for which an offer of 12,000 eu would be the appropriate price being sold by arch con woman candida through houses around italy - worh looking at. At least with that house you can see clearly what needs doing. Otherwise you think you have bought an OK house but have not. If Interested I could contact Gianni for you and he might take you around as opposed to candida - but even he is over optimistic/ head in sand re costs and work needing to be done.

Remember that when you buy a house there is the purchase price as well as the sellars commission for you to pay as well as the owners fees to the sellers- hence all the cash you hand over. they dont tell you that. You hand over the cash so they dont pay taxes. So I offered 53,000 for my house but I actually paid 49000 - the rest was the fees for the agency payable by the owners as well as a cash incentive for one of the owners to sell. I was anoyed as they hadnt told me this until last min.

When buying also think forest fire risk, falling off a cliff risk/mud slide risk/ earthquake risk etc etc. is it built on rock or soil? How close to woodland is it? Has it got water etc? Forest fires are a big risk in some areas. Just make you choices with your eyes open. Look for cracks large and small dont believe a word anyone says and get a good engineer to look at it before you buy. I found one in chiete by google.

pam

[italy]

see there you go.. thats a prime example of wrong and totally illegal process.. when you purchase a property in Italy toady you have to sign within the notary act if you paid for any agency service.. its no an optional thing the declaration if made falsely.. means that should it be found not to be true that you could be fined to the extent that you would loose your house that you had just bought..

it is illegal here for any agent that is registered to accept any payment in cash in regards a house sale and no agent that is working within the law here will accept cash it has to be by an assigned check a copy of which is attached to the final act...

to my mind this lack of knowledge of new laws and acceptable ways of doing things here is the cause of a lot of problems for people buying.. they accept these tales that have no meaning in the real Italy and if practised are significant elements that suggest the people either do not know what they are doing or are criminals that not only risk problems for themselves via the agenzia delle entrata... but also place their clienst at risk..the fines for false declarations reagrding all aspects of property sales here are very high.. and there is no benefit for either the buyer the seller or the agent in declaring false information in a sale unless you are paying with your own money obtained via criminal activity.. it really is very dangerous practice and to my mind stupid...

the most costly part of any property will be the restructure.. a full restructure on a property with no roof works out at for building costs 1500 euro per sq m.. almost doubled for seimic class 1 zones.. plus vat at 20 % and geometra /architect fees of between 13 % and 20 % so say a very small 100 meter square ruin will cost you 150,000 euro to restore plus tax an added 30,000 euro plus fees between 20 and 30,000 euro... so if you add purchase price for a property as suggested above.. 12,000 you are looking at full restructure costs if it around the 100 sq meter mark..about a 2 bedroom size house of close to 200,000 now you tell me if thats a bargain ..its not and even worse at that price or even half that price if your circumstances change you would not even be able to sell it for half that..

[the duncs]

Originally Posted by italy

see there you go.. thats a prime example of wrong and totally illegal process.. when you purchase a property in Italy toady you have to sign within the notary act if you paid for any agency service.. its no an optional thing the declaration if made falsely.. means that should it be found not to be true that you could be fined to the extent that you would loose your house that you had just bought..

it is illegal here for any agent that is registered to accept any payment in cash in regards a house sale and no agent that is working within the law here will accept cash it has to be by an assigned check a copy of which is attached to the final act...

to my mind this lack of knowledge of new laws and acceptable ways of doing things here is the cause of a lot of problems for people buying.. they accept these tales that have no meaning in the real Italy and if practised are significant elements that suggest the people either do not know what they are doing or are criminals that not only risk problems for themselves via the agenzia delle entrata... but also place their clienst at risk..the fines for false declarations reagrding all aspects of property sales here are very high.. and there is no benefit for either the buyer the seller or the agent in declaring false information in a sale unless you are paying with your own money obtained via criminal activity.. it really is very dangerous practice and to my mind stupid...

the most costly part of any property will be the restructure.. a full restructure on a property with no roof works out at for building costs 1500 euro per sq m.. almost doubled for seimic class 1 zones.. plus vat at 20 % and geometra /architect fees of between 13 % and 20 % so say a very small 100 meter square ruin will cost you 150,000 euro to restore plus tax an added 30,000 euro plus fees between 20 and 30,000 euro... so if you add purchase price for a property as suggested above.. 12,000 you are looking at full restructure costs if it around the 100 sq meter mark..about a 2 bedroom size house of close to 200,000 now you tell me if thats a bargain ..its not and even worse at that price or even half that price if your circumstances change you would not even be able to sell it for half that..

Thanks guys. Food for thought..........