Normally, if you get a work visa that is based on a particular job with a particular company your right to stay in the country is related to the job. (Just like the H1b visa in the US.) If the job goes away, so does your right to stay in the country.

That's normally the case until you have renewed your visa or work and resident permit a certain number of times. In France, that's usually somewhere between 5 and 10 years, depending on your specific circumstances.
Cheers,
Bev

Hmm, it seems most foreigners in the US come in once and stay forever. I've never actually seen the case where a foreigner was sent back home once they (legally) made it in, though I've worked directly with dozens of foreigners on jobs. Also I wonder where in the heck all of these foreigners in the US are getting their work visas. The ones who don't speak English I mean. Haha never seen a Russian speakers wanted ad in the paper, but who knows.

Maybe it is the same way in Europe. I wonder if most of the time in practice people are able to renew their visa indefinitely. Ethically speaking a company should not replace someone they brought in from another country after making the decision to relocate them from around the world. Well, unless they do something really wrong. Its not just a job at that point, its a life. Though ethics may not come into play much of the time.

Yeah I need to see specifics (by country) on policies regarding how much time a person has to find another job in the event of layoffs. Maybe it would be possible to switch to a tourist visa to buy some time while looking for other work. That should be good for at least a couple of months. And I guess I could live 'under the table' for a while like you did, as long as they don't come in the night to take me away

Um, not a bad question actually. Do they? Well, maybe not at night, but you know what I mean.

I should be focused on just finding a job in Europe right now, but I've been around the rodeo enough times to know to expect the best but plan for the worst. You can never be too prepared. If the economy of the world was in any other state I might be a little less paranoid. I wonder if other expats are as concerned about these risks or if they just go for it. Or if they just learn the details after getting the job and visa. Maybe its like If you're running for a touchdown, you don't look back.

IMHO you're really overthinking the issue.

Basic labor laws in most European countries are very very different from what you're used to in the US. The need to enroll employees in the appropriate national insurance/benefits plans makes it more necessary to get the appropriate authorizations for hiring foreigners (and more obvious if someone goes around the legal process). And, restrictions and regulations related to termination of employees makes hiring that much more difficult (at least for the employer).

There are also more specific distinctions between a "long-term" (i.e. indefinite) job contract and a "short-term" (i.e. defined duration) job contract. Well, to be honest about it, the use of job contracts in the first place really makes the whole job hunting thing a different game.

Your best source for researching job rights in the EU would be EUROPA - EURES - the European Job Mobility Portal It's designed for EU nationals, so doesn't give much information about visas and such - but there's plenty of information about labor laws and practices that you may find useful.

I'm not going to debate the US immigration situation here, because I can assure you that my perspective on it really changed when I found myself an illegal in France. Sometimes even when you try to do things by the book, you wind up in the wrong.
Cheers,
Bev

Maybe you're right. I probably am overthinking this. Ever heard of analysis paralysis? Yep, that's me. Research Nerd. Go figure. I still don't even know where I want to land. Perhaps I should take the vacation first. Spend some time on a tourist visa, figure out where exactly I want to be, then worry about the details. At least I have a few countries on my short list.

That's another one I'm kind of stuck on actually. I don't want to do this like a tourist. Tourists see buildings and paintings and rarely see the people and cultures of the cities they fly through. I hear stories like 10 cities in 14 days and wonder how they see anything at all. No I'd rather spend a few weeks or months in each of maybe three cities. At least its the off season and I won't be surrounded by tourists. Now I just need to find an affordable way of doing this. Two or three months in hotels could get awfully expensive. Hostels seen a little transient for my goals. Maybe I can find a few by the month rentals or sublets or shared accommodation or something (?)


Nice. Thanks! I know where I'll be 'hanging out' the next few days

Haha yeah, I hear you. I may also (with the best of intentions) soon find myself in that boat as well. Just to clarify, I don't think most of the people here who don't speak English actually got here illegally. Just by the numbers of them. Unless our border patrols are just drinking on the job or something. No I don't know much about US immigration, but I'm pretty sure English is just not a requirement. I think its more like an English speaking Chinese(or Russian or whatever) guy opens say a Chinese restaurant, then hires and sponsors visas for ten or more Chinese who don't speak a word of it. I'm guessing the 'model' must be something more like that. Anyway, more power to em if they can survive. I think its kind of disrespectful to the locals to never learn the language and if anything could only severely limit opportunities in the future.

My only point really is that I'm going to work pretty hard to do the opposite. Wherever I land I'm going to learn the language, the culture, history, etc. I don't want to be a foreigner forever. I am after all actually looking for a place where I fit in better than here. And how could I expect to even start without first knowing the language. Easier said than done, but still, just common sense IMO.

Thanks again for the link. Never stumbled upon that one. If you have any ideas for rentals, much appreciated.

Um, where'd you go? Sorry if that last post was offensive. I guess there are probably a lot of people reading here who are living in another country and struggling to learn the language and culture. I didn't meant to berate anyone who is having a hard time in that regard. And I can definitely appreciate the extreme level of French skill required just to have a basic conversation with someone. So it must be pretty tough on the ego, and seem condescending getting corrected like an outsider (or child?) all the time. Didn't mean to pick at that wound. Sorry. Just saying I'm conscious of the power of the language factor in fitting in and the challenge it presents and I'll be mindful to work hard at it to give myself the best odds.

Thanks again for all the helpful responses.

BTW, I'm planning my trip now. Pretty sure I'll get one of the Eurail flexipasses. And maybe I'll stay in hostiles after all unless another affordable alternative presents itself. Now I'm just unsure if I should go now or wait until after the holidays, will see.

We've been having telephone/Internet connection difficulties the last few days. Only just got the problem fixed this afternoon (after reporting it to France Telecom Monday evening).

No, the language issue is just one where your perspective seems to change once you're on the other side of the issue. It used to really bother me to hear so much Spanish spoken back in the US. However after living here a while and having to struggle with the language (despite having studied French throughout most of my public school years), I'm convinced that the US would do better to become officially bilingual and require both English and Spanish in the schools.

But that's another argument for another time...
Cheers,
Bev

Yeah, this is one that I'll be on the other side of soon enough. Maybe even in France, though if I'm being honest France is the only country I worry about the language, anywhere else good is good enough. To the French, good is unintelligible. So I feel for you there.

On the other point, oh boy oh boy, OK I'll bite...
Can't say I agree on the other point actually. As much as I feel for you living with the 'language Nazis' over there. America is getting so fragmented and with violence and tensions on the rise, we need to focus on 'celebrating' or commonality a little more and our diversity a little less. With no common enemy, as a country I'm afraid we'd have no common bond at all. War is the only thing that brings us together as a country anymore.

Not to mention that if we make this country bi-lingual, then we'll have to add on three or four other languages in rapid succession-Russian, Indian, Chinese. And if the Hispanics get it and the American Indians don't well, love to see that battle play out. We already have to pay massive taxes to have every federal and state government phone line give options in 9 languages, including Vietnamese. Not to mention all of the paperwork in all these languages. And we have to pay taxes to have redundant employees on hand to speak to all these people in all these languages and to process all the government paperwork in all these languages. Geez its so far out of hand already. This is a significant cost to government overhead and a major infrastructure burden that can not be overstated. And while we're borrowing hundreds of billions from who (China?!) really?! Wow, tomorrow we'll be borrowing from Zimbabwe...

Aside from the financial ramifications which are already huge, the continued fragmentation of our society and the loss of anything resembling a common culture is already such a problem that doesn't need to be reinforced. Every racial group in America is sticking to their own burrows, and really wanting nothing to do with anyone else. Hispanics hang with Hispanics and Jews with Jews, etc. Racism and ethnic tensions are so much on the rise. We're not even a salad bowl anymore, let alone a melting pot. Personally I think we need to stop celebrating diversity so much and celebrate our commonality or we'll really be in trouble.

If we don't have a common language, what do we have in common anymore?

/end rant

Of course you're reading this from someone who doesn't feel much a part of the program here anymore and is seeking greener pastures. But we all have our biases.

I'm sure I'll be wishing for an official second language of English, soon enough

Have to say that the language Nazis here aren't nearly as bad as you seem to think they are. Depending on who you're dealing with, even halting, beginner French is generally reasonably well accepted. It depends mostly on the situation and how you approach it.

Suffice it to say I disagree with you on the language issue in the US. I think it would make enormous good sense there to have a second language (particularly one you might actually hear and have a chance to use now and then) made absolutely mandatory in the schools. It's not so much to have everyone bi-lingual as to give everyone the chance to understand what it's like having to deal in a foreign language.

The situation you describe in the US is not unlike how things are in France. They've recently opened up a national debate on "what it is to be French" and you should hear the howls of protest. Everyone claims to "know" what French is - but no one can explain it.

France isn't nearly as unified a country as they'd have you believe - and according to a history I'm reading right now, that's hardly surprising, given that the country was more or less accumulated from a bunch of rural tribes and districts, none of whom even spoke the same language until maybe a couple hundred years ago.

And, I should let you in on a little secret I discovered years ago. One of the reasons there has always been so much hostility between the Americans and the French is because, deep down inside, the two people are very much alike and they can see their less-attractive features mirrored in the other.
Cheers,
Bev

Thanks for your response.
I have to chew on this a bit- just letting you know I'm not ignoring

Update to follow...