My status now is that I am a French national. There's some technical difference between taking "nationality" and taking "citizenship" which I don't entirely understand. However I am also a French citizen, for what that's worth.

I'm in a sort of unique situation in that my family was originally French (at least on my father's side), but because I basically came to France to marry a Frenchman, I did have a certain priority on taking nationality - despite the initial period of being illegal (even after getting married here).

My gripes about living in France are basically the usual stuff you have about wherever you're living - the politicians are corrupt, some of the laws are stupid, and there are all the various "culture shock" issues that you either learn to live with (as I have - at least most of them ) or you learn to avoid somehow.

As far as acceptance of my less than perfect French, my only issue is the French obsession with correcting non-native speakers in public, which I find rude based on my "native" culture and counterproductive based on how I learned French. Not everyone does it, and there are ways around it that you learn over time.

At a certain point, I accepted the fact that I was making most of my own problems worse. If you decide you want to live in a place, you have to find a way to deal with the stuff that bugs you. If you want an example, you only have to go to the thread on culture shock in France. The French have a different standard of hygiene than the Americans. That's not to say it's better or worse. (Americans are obsessive about body odors, which most cultures find completely natural - if you want to turn it around.)

At some point you decide that it's simply a difference and you get on with life. If you wanted to, you could apply the same principle to the US. The fact that you choose to go live elsewhere means you have a somewhat different set of standards to learn to deal with.
Cheers,
Bev

Interesting. Maybe the 'nationality' is like a permanent residence status, where citizenship is equivalent to being born there. I'll have to look into the visa options.

I'll have to think of a good comeback for this one. Being corrected constantly (and publicly) would get on my nerves. Of course we all know how the French are about their language so this might though annoying have to fall in the deal with it category.

In contrast the Dutch and the Danes are said to greatly appreciate even the slightest attempts by foreigners to speak their language.

Thanks. I'll check the culture shock thread and poke around in the France forums a bit. Just to put this in perspective, how often would you say that they shower/brush teeth/change clothes? Wondering how bad is bad.

Yep, I guess acceptance of differences is all part of the experience, maybe a big part, probably apparently more difficult in practice than theory on extended stay. BTW, on the turnaround, what are the things that you like the most compared to the US?

Absolutely not. It's very possible to have permanent residency status without ever mentioning nationality. In fact, the French really don't "push" nationality on foreigners living legally in the country the way they seem to do in the US. About the only thing you're missing out on by living long term in France as a foreigner is voting.

Trust me, it does. I've tried explaining to people that my culture considers it rude, and that when I learned French as a child, we were told NOT to let people correct us because it interferes with how we were taught the language. That doesn't work either. One thing that does kind of work on some folks is the get them to insist that they want you to correct their English when they are speaking English, and then do so, mercilessly. Some folks actually take the hint at that point.

Both the anglophones and the French feel that the rest of the world "should" speak their language. The Dutch and the Danes are realistic enough to know that very few foreigners are going to choose their language first.

Go see the culture shock thread. It can depend on region, class level, profession and lots of other factors. But remember, too, there is very little air conditioning in France and appliances like washers and dryers are much smaller than those in the US. So there is considerably more motivation to make do with less frequent washing cycles.

OK, I'll probably have my US passport taken away for saying this, but the French public services are a huge, huge plus for living here. Health care, in particular, but having a public retirement plan (not that I've been here long enough to have much coming to me when I retire, but that can't be helped), as well as basic social safety net services makes a world of difference in how you have to arrange your financial life.

The food and drink, of course, are great - and the food supply chain here seems to be much more secure than back in the US.

Then, there are lots of things that figure as both plus and minus. The French attitude toward money is at once refreshing (money really isn't everything) and annoying (because few people seem to understand here that when the government pays for things, it means higher taxes).
Cheers,
Bev

Koreans are pretty much the same. They are actually shocked if you can say "hello" in their language. The problem with this attitude is that they will actively go out of thier way to make it difficult for one to get any sort of language practice and/or use in.

So do you qualify to work, get health care, education, etc on a PR visa? If so this is all I would really care about.

Haha, yeah you can always offer to 'help' them out with their English, then just nail em every time their accent comes through. Fair's fair right

Which is great for me.

BTW I am really leaning toward Denmark. I hear its very liberal, kind of intellectual, and the people are friendly, though I've heard the same about the Dutch, so its hard to chose between them at this point. I read somewhere that the top tax rate in Denmark is 63%! And this kicks in at only 350,000 DKs ($70,000 US equivalent). OMG, I'm staggered! I knew taxes were high in Europe but this is unbelievable. So if I land a 70K/yr contract, I'll take home something like 26K. Ouch. Big Ouch. On top of this it seems housing and food are (allegedly) quite expensive. I'm seriously wondering how these people even survive.

Need to do more research and compare average salaries, cost of living, get more info on the tax systems etc. If I have this right, then I'll be leaning toward the Netherlands, presuming their take home and cost of living is any better.

Maybe France is more affordable in these respects?

I'm getting through 'culture shock' now, interesting read...

Well I hope they don't take your passport, supposedly freedom of speech is the main thing going for team USA. Anyway, yeah I totally agree that a 'safety net' of sorts would free up a lot of my mind for actually enjoying what is left of this life.

Can't say I've had much French food. Seems French is synonymous with very expensive over here. So that would be a welcome benefit as well. Also it seems the weather of Lyon is quite nice. Lots of rain so everything is green, but lots of sun as well. Don't know why I picked Lyon to start with, maybe because its in the south and I did read it is quite nice.

Yeah, still, can't be as bad as Denmark, or can it? Tax research coming up, oh joy...

Stay posted.

It seems that I'll have to eat my hat on this one a bit.
Just stumbled on this site, showing several articles about the Dutch putting more pressure on expats to learn the local language. It seems that the 'French thing' of speaking to them in French and them replying in English is pretty common and practice especially for a beginner can be difficult to attain:

Learning Dutch is a must! < Languages | Expatica The Netherlands

The videos were pretty good.

Maybe this is score one point Denmark.

There is no such thing in France as a PR visa. To get a working visa (i.e. one that allows you to work) you have to have a job first so your employer can "sponsor" you. After you renew your annual carte de séjour enough times, they will usually offer you a longer version (5 or 10 years, depending on your situation). Of course you have to stay employed by the same employer to have the renewal go smoothly every year during the initial period.

IOW, it's not the visa that gets you health care and other benefits, it's the job and the "contributions" you make to the various systems.

Don't make the mistake of considering only tax rates and estimated "take home" pay. Those are very deceptive numbers. That top tax rate in Denmark (and elsewhere) only applies to salary OVER $70K - under the top rate things are subject to a graduated scale of tax, just like in the US. And you aren't figuring in any deductions - which vary from country to country. It's very common in most European countries that all contributions to the health care and other social insurance funds are deductible from income, and many countries allow you to deduct commuting costs for work. Most have some form of standard deduction to cover miscellaneous costs of work and/or personal expenses.

Then, too, when you have national benefits, that eliminates quite a few items from your personal budget that you may take for granted in the US: health care co-pays, contributions to an IRA or 401K plan, some other forms of insurance. If you're in an area with decent public transport, you may not need to have a car - and in France, the employer pays one-half your monthly transit pass.

Some countries (like France) don't withhold taxes from your paycheck - only social benefits insurances. You settle up your income taxes in September of the next year. In the meantime, they knick about 20% of your gross pay for the various insurances.

It also makes a difference when those high taxes translate into public services - like cheaper transit fares, the safer food chain I mentioned before, the whole social safety net, etc.
Cheers,
Bev

I guess that's not a bad idea to just require a job for a visa, but this can be a real downside to have one's visa depend upon a job from which in this economy one could easily be laid off. I would hate to have to depend on one employer for my entire future in a country.

In contrast Denmark has three kinds of work visas, one for in demand or 'positive' jobs like IT, another for high paying jobs (over 80K per year USD, something like 375K DKK), and a third option which is a green card based upon a points system. It seems the problem with the first two, and it sounds like the same problem with a French visa, is the scenario if one relocates across the world basically then loses their job. With no more employer I imagine no more visa, and its 'get out' time. Hmm. A nice thing about their green card is that a person can stay, work as many jobs as they like, go to school, etc for 3 years. A lot more freedom (and a lot less risky!) it seems.

In the Netherlands there are basically two visas, one I'll call a 'girlfriend sponsor' and the other a work sponsor. For the latter see 'get out' scenario. So it seems if a person moves to the Netherlands on a work visa they'd better 'hook up' just in case haha.

Denmark looks a little more attractive in this regard. However the points system is not a slam dunk. You have to get 100 pts and its not as easy as it sounds. I have a BA degree, from a school qualifying in the top 100 for bonus points, and my degree is in a 'positive' industry, getting bonus points, and I have the maximum points allowed for work experience in a 'positive' industry, I'm native English speaking, getting max points for a language, and I'm still short. Education is huge. If I had a Masters or PhD I'd have it. As it stands I'll have to learn a bit of Danish to get those extra points and tip the scales. It's work up front, but seems in light of the economy maybe the most safe choice.

I've been laid off a few times in the past few years, and it wasn't very easy here in my home country. I'd hate to have that happen abroad and be forced not just to find another job, but to have to leave the country as well. Maybe this is score one point for Denmark.

So when you hear about good affordable health care in Europe this is actually a part of good company benefits, not government policies. Interesting. So basically European companies just treat their people a little better

Good points on the taxes and the cost of living. After health care and retirement, and transportation are covered, there isn't as much for the employee to have to pay for out of pocket. Apparently then more of their take home is ultimately disposable.

What you describe as the points system in Denmark seems to work pretty much like the points systems in Canada, Australia and elsewhere. They are looking to pick off the "cream" of the potential expats - well-educated, already relatively fluent in the local language and (most importantly) unlikely to need social services in the near future. The main thing is employability, which takes you back to the same issue with the regular old employer-related work visa.

No. In most European countries, the employer has no choice in the matter of "benefits." If you want to employ someone, you have to pay the employer's share of all social insurances, including health care and retirement. And you have to withhold the employee's share from whatever you are paying them. (Including for your cleaning lady who comes round only once a week for a couple hours.) It's still the government system, even if there might be a private option for health insurance. It's one of the reasons that jobs are so hard to come by in Europe - in France, for example, the employer winds up paying an additional 40% of your gross salary in government-mandated "benefits." And, with the restrictions on firing people once hired, employers think long and hard before hiring someone they may have to pay dearly to get rid of.
Cheers,
Bev

Yep, its pretty tough. With all my points for education, I'll still have to learn level 2 out of 3 Danish. That's pretty high. This is quite an investment to make in a language that is only useful in Scandinavia. And an investment I'll have to make before even applying. Imagine if I don't get in! What a waste. German or French or Spanish would be a much more practical investment it seems.

But then I can't complain. I wish it was this tough for foreigners to get into America. Then more Americans would have jobs right now. They say 'outsourcing' on TV for five years, then they say 'unemployment' and somehow nobody makes the connection. And hardly anyone speaks English here anymore. Not in public anyway. I went to a major city park the other night for a walk at sunset and literally 90% of the people were speaking a foreign language. While I respect foreigners rights to hold on to their native cultures, I wonder if they come here to 'be' a part of America or to 'get' a part of America.

I see this as a problem for Americas future. No way I'm going to be like that when I go abroad. I cannot imagine moving to a foreign country just to take my culture there. I cannot imagine anything being higher on my priority list than speaking the language as well as possible, and well before I arrive. To me it would seem rude otherwise. But then maybe that's because I want to experience a foreign culture as fully as possible and not just go get a piece of a good thing.

So I actually do want to live in a country that's hard to get into, and hard to take advantage of social systems. A little ironic considering my education goals. But I plan on contributing substantially with the skills I have and the skills I gain so I don't consider it 'using' the system as so often happens here (in the US) and elsewhere. I think the Danes are quite smart about it really.

Just imagine if my university was not a top 100, and if my degree was not in a 'preferred' field. I'd need a PhD AND Danish language skills to have a shot. Yeah, that's pretty picky. If I want to pay taxes to a country that spends its money on people who pay taxes, well I guess this is the price I have to pay- up front. Like admission to the show. I guess that's fair really. And in the long run, its peace of mind.

I guess then you could think of the employers as part of the filtering process for immigration. If you can't get by their scrutinizing, and they are the ones who are going to pay the bill, then you can't get in. Also not a bad idea actually. I'm guessing that green card aside, this is how the Danish system operates for regular work visas, as their firms are reputed to be very rigorous in their interview and hiring processes. It seems to be the same in the Netherlands. If I'm being honest I think I would actually prefer to live in the south of France. From what I can tell they are maybe the most friendly to intellectuals/nerds/artists. Plus the weather is much better than in Scandinavia and the north, and the countryside is just beautiful.

I really have to get the details on what happens if I lose my job for whatever reason. I would think that if I have brought enough money to support myself financially and don't need to lean on the social systems, then I should be able to stay long enough to find another job. I would be just gutted to make such a move and personal investment, only to be shipped back to the US upon losing a job. Maybe its time to start actually phoning immigration offices or paying some kind of specialist. I'm a geek I can't help it. I have to have all the info up front. Any suggestions where to look for these details? Is there a paid service that's good and won't rob me?