Recently been offered a job in Paris! I have a few questions.

[bduritsch]

Hi everyone,

So I am a 25 year old Software Engineer, I am from the U.S. I was recently offered a position with a start-up company in Paris, France. They want me to start right away. They made me an offer, and it is hard for me to refuse. Unfortunately, the salary is a little lower than I had expected. I will be making roughly 28,000 Euros per year.

I have a few questions. Number one, would it be difficult for someone like me living in Paris on that kind of salary? How restrictive would I need to be in my lifestyle in order to still do things and have fun? Is Paris even livable on that kind of salary? I am trying to negotiate for better pay right now.

The next question I have is an interesting one. Say I move to Paris, and this company has taken the time to process my work permit for me (which they said would take roughly four months), would it be possible for me to attempt to find new employment if for some reason this job ends up not working out for me? I want to make sure that I won't be forced out of the country if this job doesn't end up being the right fit for me.

Please feel free to ask me any other questions if you need more information.

Thanks!

[Startree]

We're just spending the holidays there (Garches) for 6 weeks but I can tell you what I've gathered reading about the area. Basically expats tend to live in the western part of the city meaning towards Saint Cloud and beyond. The commute is bad so living near a train line helps. The salary you're saying isn't horrible. I'm sure you can work with that. I can look for the thread I saw with multiple links for rental websites and post it here. There's an American church and library in Paris. Plenty of english bookstores and some bars with american sports. I say pick a place to live and have fun! Let us know if you want to watch a football game with us, we'll be there Dec/Jan.

[Startree]

I think this is a good thread Apartments outside the peripherique?
It has a train map link and plenty of rental links. Let us know how it goes!

[Bevdeforges]

It's not a bad salary for a start-up and also for someone your age. Most French university graduates have to juggle sequential CDD's (temp jobs) into their early 30's before they land a CDI (permanent or "real" job).

One issue with living on the west side of Paris is that the suburbs out there are expensive to live in. While Startree is right in that the western suburbs have many expats (and English-speaking expats at that), that has traditionally been because the English language schools are located out there and those executives here on expat payroll have tended to be housed in the Western Suburbs (with healthy subsidies from their employers).

To start to check out housing pricings, you can take a look at the FUSAC online. (They seem to be doing maintenance online so the URL isn't working, but google "FUSAC" and you should find the link. Normally either FUSAC - Petites annonces pour anglophones de Paris or France U.S.A. Contacts: cultural exchange between France and the USA should get you there.) You'll be limited in terms of rent to 30 - 35% of your monthly salary (so, about 800€ a month in your case) which may mean you'll do better to check the areas outside of Paris, but along the various transport lines. Your employer has to underwrite (by half) the cost of your monthly transit pass, which then means you have access to the regions covered by your pass evenings and weekends, too.

As far as having options once you're here - in your first few years in France, your visa and residence permit are only valid for the employer who is your sponsor. Your visa gets you into France, and then you apply for a carte de séjour (i.e. residence permit, which in your case also serves as your work permit). Each year when you renew the carte de séjour, you are supposed to show that you still meet the requirements of your initial visa - i.e. that you are still working for the sponsoring employer.

After a period of time (I think it's 5 years, but I'm not certain on that figure), they'll give you a longer term carte de séjour, with working privileges no longer restricted to the one employer. Before that time, if you want to change jobs, your new employer would have to apply to sponsor you for a new visa and you would have to make a run back to the US to make your visa application and re-enter France with the appropriate visa - then start the carte de séjour process over again.

Just in general, you will be expected to learn French if you don't already know it. (Though you may either qualify for free French classes through the OFII or your new employer may provide you with French classes.) Remember in the salary negotiations that you'll be paying French social insurances - and that makes a HUGE difference when it comes to things like health care and pension plan funding. If you can get by without a car (even just at first) that's another huge savings over what you're probably paying now in the US.
Cheers,
Bev

[bduritsch]

Thank you Bev and Startree for your replies. Your information has been quite useful to me.

I have learned a few more things about the possible job I am pursuing. Therefore, I do have some more questions for you. I asked them about how many hours I would spend working typically in one week, and their answer was around 60 hours.

My question for this is how many weeks vacation would I receive working this much? It seems like an awfully large amount. I am only used to doing this kind of work in the states for potential overtime, not as my regular job hours. I heard that in France for someone who works 35 hours it is normal to have five weeks vacation. Is this true?

My next question is related to unemployment. Since my employer will be a start-up company, what would happen if business is no longer successful and the company were to lay off its workers? After I have my visa and pay taxes in France would I have any unemployment benefits? Can I still look for other means of a job?

I have a question about residency and work permits in France. I was told by my employer that I can legally hold a residence in France during the first 90 days, I do not have to wait for the work visa. Is this true? I always thought that the visa you get from your passport does not entitle you to legally live anywhere within the country.

Also, I am wondering if I should look for a flat with a roommate. This may be the best option to protect me if things might fall through (hopefully not), but if the roommate already has an apartment and I want to join him/her then would I be bound to any kind of lease agreement say for one year, like in the states?

Thanks again for any future answers to these questions.

[Bevdeforges]

You're definitely asking the right questions. As a start-up, you could be in a somewhat precarious position and it pays to know what's going on before you make up your mind.

Originally Posted by bduritsch

My question for this is how many weeks vacation would I receive working this much? It seems like an awfully large amount. I am only used to doing this kind of work in the states for potential overtime, not as my regular job hours. I heard that in France for someone who works 35 hours it is normal to have five weeks vacation. Is this true?

Legally, you receive 5 weeks of vacation each year, no matter how long you work each week. You earn 1/12th of your annual allotment each month and basically can't take vacation until May 1st of the year after you've earned it. You must be allowed to take up to 4 weeks all together between May 1st and October 31st. (And you can't take all 5 weeks at once.)

Under the 35 hour workweek rules, you're supposed to be able to bank your excess time to take as "RTT" time or be paid for it. However, if you're in a category considered a "cadre" (sort of like a manager level) the 35 hour rules may not apply.

My next question is related to unemployment. Since my employer will be a start-up company, what would happen if business is no longer successful and the company were to lay off its workers? After I have my visa and pay taxes in France would I have any unemployment benefits? Can I still look for other means of a job?

That's a tricky one. The first few years, your work visa is sponsored by your employer - and if you lose your job, you lose your sponsor. You will be paying into the cotisation system, so you should be eligible for unemployment (chomage) and technically, you'd be able to stay in France until your carte de séjour expires. But, if you found another job, your new employer would have to sponsor you for a new work visa and you'd have to go back to the US to apply for it. After about 5 years, you'll get a long-term carte de séjour with full working privileges.

I have a question about residency and work permits in France. I was told by my employer that I can legally hold a residence in France during the first 90 days, I do not have to wait for the work visa. Is this true? I always thought that the visa you get from your passport does not entitle you to legally live anywhere within the country.

Actually, not true. You have to apply for the work visa outside of France (after your employer has gotten permission to hire a foreigner) - and after you receive your work visa, you must enter the country in order to "validate" the visa. On the 90 day visa you can live in France - but your legal "residence" is still back in your home country and you're most definitely not supposed to be working while on a 90 day tourist visa.

Also, I am wondering if I should look for a flat with a roommate. This may be the best option to protect me if things might fall through (hopefully not), but if the roommate already has an apartment and I want to join him/her then would I be bound to any kind of lease agreement say for one year, like in the states?

Flat shares, or roommate arrangements are becoming rather popular among young people here in France. Residential leases in France normally run for 3 years, but with specific conditions where you can give notice and get out of the lease. If you have to move "for work reasons" (i.e. change jobs, are relocated by your job or lose you job) you can usually get out of a lease on 30 days notice.

There should be some flat share ads in FUSAC (and they're in English!) - good place to start to see what's available and how it would fit into your budget. F U S A C
Cheers,
Bev

[Mohaka]

Hi there,

28,000 Euros (Brut or Net??? I mean before or after taxes...I guess before taxes because in France we are talking en Brut) per year seems to me not so good, Have you got a Master degrees ? Have you got working experience as a Software Engineer ? if yes, you should be at about 33,000 Euros per year minimun (Before taxes)...

60 hours a week ???? and they pay you only 28,000 Euros per year....
Ok, I know start up company in France can be crazy but this is not legal!!!! In France, you work 35 hours a week....if they need you to work more (in France most of people work at least 40 hours a week), they need you to pay you for it or to give you some RTT (give you back the time in fact). If you are "cadre" (depending of your statue, if you work as a Master Degree you are).... 35 hours rules still apply but this is a little bit different...in fact you can work one day 12 hours and the other day 4 hours...or 55 hours one week and 22 hours the next....nobody will check out but your average time per week should be at 35 hours still at the end of the year...

In a start up company this is not "rare" to work few hours more per week without be paid or anything.... this is not legal but this is not easy for small company to survive....ok, I can understand that but between working 36-39 hours per week and 60 hours a week for nothing there is a gap...

My advice as French:

60 hours a week ok but 2 conditions: You have to be paid a lot more or/and they need to give you more vacations (your 5 legal weeks + a lot more with RTT...).

But if they pay you "only" 28,000 Euros per year, 5 weeks vacation, no RTT....do not accept this kind of conditions...for me this is crazy...

In Paris, renting is very expensive....so probably you will have to live in the suburban areas so you will spend time in transport....probably a lot of time...if you work 60 hours a week I don't know when you are going to enjoy Paris ...

Feel free to ask any questions
Cheers
Nico

[bduritsch]

Thank you very much for your reply. It has been interesting to see how a real French person would judge this situation.

This company also wants me to begin working, and will hire me "day one" during my 90 day visitor's visa while they apply for my work visa which they say can take up to four months to process.

My question is: Is it legal for me to work for this company while there on the visitor's visa?

[_Sarah_]

Originally Posted by bduritsch

This company also wants me to begin working, and will hire me "day one" during my 90 day visitor's visa while they apply for my work visa which they say can take up to four months to process.

My question is: Is it legal for me to work for this company while there on the visitor's visa?

That's very clearly illegal; the 90 days you are allowed in France without a visa are as a tourist, and as such you have no work rights...

[bduritsch]

Thanks, that's good to know. *sigh* Well, it looks like I'm back to job searching again. I would really like to work in Paris for a company, but I guess this time things just didn't work out in my favor. I think I'll stay home in America for now and hopefully find something better. Any suggestions? I'm an IT professional, so I was hoping that a lot of companies over there would have a high demand for someone in that industry.