Tax - help!

[Martyn]

Hi,

I'm trying to find some answers about the French tax system, and am getting nowhere on the internet. Basically, my situation is this:

I'm a young(ish - 26) British scientist, about to finish my PhD in the UK. I've been offered a 15-month long job at the Universite Pierre et Marie Curie, in the 5th arrondissement of Paris. It's pretty much a dream job - very interesting work, eminent colleagues, great location, good career prospects etc. The only problem is the money they're offering: 1600 Euros per month before tax - about half the pay for a comparable UK job. Can anyone tell me roughly what I'd have left after tax, cotisations etc, or at least point me towards an answer? I've spent all day looking at the various calculators and tables I've found via google and you guys, and haven't had much success getting actual numbers out of them. I'm also assuming that all the cotisations are compulsory, even for a temporary worker on a low wage - am I right to do so?

Please help!

[Bevdeforges]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Yes, young academics are not paid all that well in France. But on the other hand, chances are you won't wind up paying much in income taxes, either. (You'll still have to file a return, but there may not be much to pay.)

Cotisations run about 20% of your gross pay. (That's a very rough figure, but it seems to work for most people here.) France does not currently withhold any sort of income tax - you settle up after you file your first declaration. (They have floated the idea of doing withholdings but so far the idea doesn't seem too popular.)
Cheers,
Bev

[giantpanda]

Hi!

If you get Euro 1600/monthly gross, that will mean about just under Euro 1100 net a month ( after social charges ).

Further for full 12 months it would mean income tax of Euro 1142/year if you are single.

However, you would certainly pay less, because in France the tax year is the calendar year, and in one given year you would not have 12 months income, but a fraction thereof. In France you would have to declare normally only from the date you become a fiscal resident, and not for the time before.

NB. If you have other income, you would have the obligation to declare in France your worl income ( and the tax paid elsewhere ).

Yours,

giantpanda

PS. I have the impression I have seen this question lately, possibly elsewhere.

[Martyn]

Thanks for the quick responses. At 20%, I'd be left with 1280, which might just about be enough, but can I ask how you arrive at under 1100? That's over 30% on cotisations, which would leave enough for rent and not much else.

[Bevdeforges]

Just to check, I went back and consulted my most recent pay slip (and I make a little less than what you are looking at). The total cotisations work out to be 24%, with the mutuelle (health insurance to top up the sécu coverage) the only non-mandatory item. (Besides being non-mandatory, there is also some leeway in how the mutuelle premium is split between employer and employee.)

It's possible there may be some differences in the cotisations as a university employee, especially on a fixed term position, but I'm not aware of anything specific.
Cheers,
Bev

[giantpanda]

Originally Posted by Martyn

Thanks for the quick responses. At 20%, I'd be left with 1280, which might just about be enough, but can I ask how you arrive at under 1100? That's over 30% on cotisations, which would leave enough for rent and not much else.

Hi!

To work it out there are different variables, which are not available, but see here:

feuille de paie simulation - Recherche Google

You get around Euro 1060

or

here

Simulation paie - calcul paie, gestion de paie - fiche paie - externalisation paie : bulletin de paye expliqué

you get around Euro 1248 ( you have to adapt the hourly rate to get to the monthly pay.)

Yours,

giantpanda

PS. How about asking your employer to get exact figures.

[parsnips]

Originally Posted by Martyn

Hi,

I'm trying to find some answers about the French tax system, and am getting nowhere on the internet. Basically, my situation is this:

I'm a young(ish - 26) British scientist, about to finish my PhD in the UK. I've been offered a 15-month long job at the Universite Pierre et Marie Curie, in the 5th arrondissement of Paris. It's pretty much a dream job - very interesting work, eminent colleagues, great location, good career prospects etc. The only problem is the money they're offering: 1600 Euros per month before tax - about half the pay for a comparable UK job. Can anyone tell me roughly what I'd have left after tax, cotisations etc, or at least point me towards an answer? I've spent all day looking at the various calculators and tables I've found via google and you guys, and haven't had much success getting actual numbers out of them. I'm also assuming that all the cotisations are compulsory, even for a temporary worker on a low wage - am I right to do so?

Please help!

Hi Martyn,
Just one small point, check with the employer that the quoted pay is truly gross, or , as is often the case in France, net of social charges ,but before tax.

[Martyn]

Thanks again for all your help. I had been told it's about 1600 before tax, but had assumed that also meant before cotisations. I asked them if that was the case, and didn't get a straight answer, but was told that it costs them 2800 Euros to pay me 1600.

After a lot of playing with the gestiondelapaie simulator, I've found that a 2000 Euro gross salary has 440 Euros of employee cotisations, leaving about 1600 as net salary. Also, there are 830 Euros of employer cotisations, so they would pay about 2800 total.

If that's true, they are actually offering a reasonable wage. You've given me hope!

[yeehoo]

I am in a fairly similar situation - i came here from the u.s. and work in research. And my pay is not that different from what you describe (also around half of what i earned in the u.s. before coming here). One thing that i can tell you that might make it pretty simple is that you will also receive what they call a "prime" - a little extra pay every 6 months - basically for showing up. I think if you were out sick for sick months, for example, you would not recieve your "prime".

Anyway the point is that for me these "primes" roughly amount to what i owe each year in income taxes and tax d'habitation. They are the amount of a sort of base pay - it equals your category of pay as though you were at the very bottom - every two years or so you move up and are paid a little more but your prime remains the same - unless you get a promotion to a different category of job. Since you are just starting it might be equal to your monthly paycheck.

Of courses this assumes that when they'll told you you'd earn 1600€ per month they were not including the prime. I imagine they were not, but it would be smart to check.

cheers

[yeehoo]

By the way, with regard to whether this is a livable salary or not.

My view, and i live in Nice, is that my salary is enough to live on as long as you are content to rent. Buying an apartment around here nowadays - i really feel that that is out of my range - not totally impossible but reasonable (partly due to my age as well). Other parts of France are much more reasonable but Paris is probably even worse than Nice.

One thing here in Nice is that you can rent a nice place for what i consider a reasonable price. On the other hand you can run into the problem of proving you can pay the rent. This means showing that your income is 3 times the rent plus charges. Well my salary for the first year was unreasonably low (i was later reimbursed when they established a higher pay for me) and i had to find someone to co-sign for me. If not i'd have been living in a shoebox somewhere, or i'd have had to share a flat with someone. Even now that i've been here awhile and make a fair bit more (1950€), i think if i needed to look for a new apartment i would have a hard time finding something i liked for under 650€. In your case you'd have to find something in Paris for under 570€. Good luck. I've never looked for an apartment in Paris but that sounds like it would be tough to find.

I guess another option is to rent from an individual rather than through an agent (but most apts go through agents) - they usually don't use the 3 times rule. The other is to know someone to co-sign and last is to share a flat. Also if you find a furnished place with a one year lease they have less strict requirements.

Perhaps other people have other things to say on this but this has been my experience here.

cheers and good luck