Where to live and go? Sorry to make you jealous!

[palvador]

Hi all,

Much like almost every other expat forum, this one is clearly dedicated to helping each other get visas, job issues and so on. That's terrific and well done to you all for helping each other out.

For those who have been battling with French bureaucracy, my story is probably going to make you physically sick with envy, but I'm not here to show off. Just here to get some ideas on where to try and live generally.

1. My father is French and when i was younger, he got me a french passport. Which I still have of course.

2. I work in IT and can work anywhere in the world where there is an internet connection. My office is my laptop. My job pays well.

3. I'm single in late 20s(male)

4. I do not know much French but would like to get a grasp on the language (obviously before I arrive).

So... in a nutshell, I suppose that I'm just trying to find a city to live in. Paris is always an option and I can afford it. However, I get very mixed reports about living there from expats I've come across so I'm not really sure what to make of it. Obviously Paris is the premier city for various reasons and a few expats told me that Parisians may be more friendly that their reputation indicates, but at the same time, they felt that breaking into a French friendship group was not easy in Paris and they tended to generally hang around with other expats. Further, they said that the bars and clubs they went to were very expat'ish or somewhat touristy, while they suspected that the locals had their own, almost-secret, little spots.

But that's an impression from a very small sample and i would be interested to hear whether this actually is true from the perspective of all of you here.

Aside from this, there's all this north-south-east-west cultural divides that French people sometimes talk about, but in fairness, it seems to be more about whether you are from the north or the south.

I really can't work it out even when i've got it down to two. Some people say the people in the north can be a little bit "unusual" but at the same time, they are very somehow more innocent and shy, but can be "friends for life" sort of people. People from the south, however, would (from what I've been told) appear to be more "cool" but are nonetheless friendly as well, but perhaps a little more transient about their friendliness, yet, a perhaps more open to strangers.

In any event, France's beauty extends beyond the borders of Paris so with all the options open to me and all my affairs generally in order, my three questions would therefore be:

1) If you really do make an effort with both the language and with socialising, do you find that French people will generally come around and consider you a good friend or do you sense that the "outsider" stigma tends to persist? Try to be honest as I can live with realities if I'm aware of them and in any case, I can often break the ice very well so I suppose I'm trying to find out whether it's a challenge, mission impossible, easy or perhaps even some tips to win over French people (aside from learning the language).

2) How would you expats out there classify the North vs the South (and the East and West vs the rest if you find a noticeable difference)? If you had the choice of a section of France to live in, which direction would you lean towards?

3) If you had the choice of any city in France, what would you say? Keep in mind that I am still a young person, though I am noticing a little bit of hair collected in my shower drain sometimes

But seriously, though, I would be looking for somewhere where the people are warm and friendly, the nightlife is pretty active and happening, there is a reasonable expat community around my 25-35 year old age bracket (that I can use as a base to get me started) and a place where you think you could live for a reasonable length of time?

Now this last point "think you could live for a reasonable length of time" is admittedly way too ambitious and disregard if it would turn you off a recommendation. Also, I am also fairly happy with towns with a bit of a university population as it can give a city a bit of a buzz or something.

So there you go, any help appreciated and if any impressions I have stated are completely wrong, please point them out and also, I have not ruled out Paris at all so any views on there are also most welcome.

Thanks

[Bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by palvador

1) If you really do make an effort with both the language and with socialising, do you find that French people will generally come around and consider you a good friend or do you sense that the "outsider" stigma tends to persist? Try to be honest as I can live with realities if I'm aware of them and in any case, I can often break the ice very well so I suppose I'm trying to find out whether it's a challenge, mission impossible, easy or perhaps even some tips to win over French people (aside from learning the language).

2) How would you expats out there classify the North vs the South (and the East and West vs the rest if you find a noticeable difference)? If you had the choice of a section of France to live in, which direction would you lean towards?

3) If you had the choice of any city in France, what would you say? Keep in mind that I am still a young person, though I am noticing a little bit of hair collected in my shower drain sometimes

1. Social life in France tends to revolve around the family, and I've noticed here that "friends" ("amis") are those people you have known for most of your life. The rest of the people you hang with are mere "copains." That does tend to limit your social development - though younger people are often a bit more flexible in this regard. In short, it probably falls in the "challenge" category, especially until you get your French skills up to acceptable levels.

2. First of all, just about anywhere outside of Paris and the Paris area you will probably find the people a bit more casual - not so into what's "proper" and what's not. Probably just a big city phenomenon. As for the north-south divide, there is a very popular film out here called Bienvenue chez les ch'tis which is said to paint a very affectionate portrait of the folks from the Nord (the region called le Nord). You can skip the US remake. Frankly, each region has its own charms and hang-ups.

3. France is a country of small towns (some 30,000+ of them at last count). Universities here are not of the campus variety - most university students live at home with Maman and Papa if they can. The clubbing scene is probably more common amongst the young professionals set (assuming they have found jobs) rather than the students. But, being both an "old fogey" and more inclined to the suburban/rural scene, I'm probably out of my depth here.

One other possibility for you might be Brussels. I'm told the night life there is quite lively, plus the multi-national atmosphere makes it conducive for those new to the area.
Cheers,
Bev

[palvador]

Thank you Bev,

1) As for social life, I suppose that I expected this to some extent, but the observation of the importance of the family unit is an interesting one.

2) Thank you for pointing out the "casual" thing as that is important. I am from a big city and if there is one thing i've found, it's that the language is usually one of the few differences between big cities. The attitudes, the fashion, the BS, the plastic...etc... it persists in London, Paris, Rome, Berlin.... you can find this everywhere and I'm not making a drastic move to get the same things I can get at home. If "inner" Paris is like that, even to some degree, that's probably enough of a turn off and motivation to look at smaller towns more carefully. Besides, most of the really good French people I've met abroad were not from Paris anyway, though now that I think about it, i never really seemed to come across many French travelers from Paris. hmm....

However, do you have any observations of charactersitics of people from north v people from south.

3) Ummm.... I'm not sure about that, so I'd probably say in the end that it varies. I have the feeling that young French people are a bit more 'on the go' and study in different places, but i'm not sure.

Absolutely intriguing - you are the second person I've spoken about this with and both of you raised Brussles as a possibility. I suppose it suits the international person, but i'm also curious as to what it would be like to live with the sons and daughters of diplomats, UN workers...etc.. At least I can be sure that the food would be good!

Thanks for comments, all others welcome.

[giantpanda]

Hi!

Sorry as usual I have to play devil's advocate. ( but better now, than later )

If you come to France, just check in advance the question of validity of French nationality.

I have a complex situation, and when returning to France, it was endless red tape to get my French Nationality recognised in spite of: naturalisation decree, French Military service, valid up-to-date passport, but no identity card ( it had been issued 1955 and was later destroyed). I was even told that my passport could have been falsified. Took nearly 18 months - A task of squaring the circle.

Now since you were probably born outside France, better check if you are registered in Nantes, where all French born outside France have to be registered. If you are not registered, you will in most red tape matters land there.

au Service central de l'état civil, 11 rue de la Maison Blanche, 44941 Nantes Cedex 9, si le demandeur est né à l'étranger.

It helps if you have the French Livret de Famille ( from your father ).

Another point just in case:

If you live in France and work ( even from internet , even just one day ) you would have to register as "travailleur indépendant", which means registering at the URSSAF, and paying Social Security contributions.

I find that even if you have certainly a good income, your red tape matters are not quite as envious as you may think.

A GB citizen on pension has a very simple situation.

Yours,

pomhorn

[palvador]

Devils advocate away, all opinions welcome.

But you are correct, I was born out of France and needed to register at Nante. This has been done and I have the documentation. I have also been issued with a type of French identity card. But father does not have his own a Livret de Famille. His birth is registered in his parents Livret de Famille which we still have. Perhaps I should have my birth registered in this book somehow?

In any case, the point was that many expats appear to get frustrated everywhere in Europe (especially since Shengen) dealing with visas and permits and jobs and sponsorships or all that stuff. I don't have to worry about that. Sure there will be red tape of some description, but if i rent to start off with and test it out for a little while, I'll then consider whether I could stay long term and after that, go through the formalities.

Thank you for you contributions

[giantpanda]

Originally Posted by palvador

Devils advocate away, all opinions welcome.

But you are correct, I was born out of France and needed to register at Nante. This has been done and I have the documentation. I have also been issued with a type of French identity card. But father does not have his own a Livret de Famille. His birth is registered in his parents Livret de Famille which we still have. Perhaps I should have my birth registered in this book somehow?

In any case, the point was that many expats appear to get frustrated everywhere in Europe (especially since Shengen) dealing with visas and permits and jobs and sponsorships or all that stuff. I don't have to worry about that. Sure there will be red tape of some description, but if i rent to start off with and test it out for a little while, I'll then consider whether I could stay long term and after that, go through the formalities.

Thank you for you contributions

Hi!

If you are registered in Nantes, then your father did things properly, and you are " priveleged ".

Then the Livret de Famille will not be so important, until you marry.

Also just remember, ( can be also of use for others ) in France you do not register for Personal Income Tax, at the Centre des Impôts. The French expect you to volunteer the 1st income tax return, and fetch the forms (- at least 2042/2047/3916 ) yourself or download them. NB. The French Tax year is the calendar year, and you have always to declare your world income, and possibly taxes paid elsewhere.

Yours,

giantpanda

PS. Depending where you come from, you would need a form known in Europe as E106 ( valid 2 years after you stopped working ) - E 121 for pensioned people - to get Health Insurance coverage, otherwise you would require to contract a private health insurance , equivalent to the French CMU which is rather costly. ( for pensioned people without E121, possibly out of grasp ). Without coverage, also for EC members they can turn you down.

[Bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by palvador

Absolutely intriguing - you are the second person I've spoken about this with and both of you raised Brussles as a possibility. I suppose it suits the international person, but i'm also curious as to what it would be like to live with the sons and daughters of diplomats, UN workers...etc.. At least I can be sure that the food would be good!

It's probably because Brussels is known for its nightlife - not so much clubbing, but there is a tradition there of making an entire evening of dining out with friends. Very congenial, and there's always the 365 different varieties of beer made in Belgium (the number varies according to who is citing the statistic, but there are lots of different types of beer no matter how you count them).
Cheers,
Bev

[smoore4]

"Sorry to make you jealous?" I see some serious culture shock in your future. A propos de nord/sud, va voir Bienvenue chez les Ch'tis. Et apprend francais. Sinon tu vas etre vachement decu.