Question regarding French citizenship

[AdLoki]

I think I may have posted my question in the wrong forum but I cannot link to it as I am a new member, so I will have to copy and paste my question here (apologies, I know it's frowned upon)


Hi All,

First post here and it is fairly long, so apologies in advance.

I am 28 and trying to establish whether I am eligible to hold a French passport; my circumstances are a little convoluted:

I am technically of dual nationality -- my mother is French and my father English. I was born in the UK and have a UK birth certificate, however, at the age of 9, I moved with my parents to France. At that point I was considered as a French citizen, was in the French education system, was on my mother's French passport as a minor, had a French Carte d'identité and was included on the Livret de famille.

To all intents and purposes, there we should have stayed and my dual citizenship would have been assured. However, we in fact returned to the UK after only 2.5 years and I have lived here ever since. My mother (who, despite having lived in UK for more of her life than in France, has never taken UK citizenship and remains a fully-French citizen) and father once again live in France.

I am a fluent French speaker and would really like to hold a French passport and have my French citizenship confirmed, however, I do not know whether this is possible without first taking residence in France again.

It is worth mentioning that over ten years ago I was called up for my JAPD (now called the Journée défense et citoyenneté, a replacement for mandatory military service, the attencance at which is meant to instruct you in matters of French citizenship). In my teenaged stupidity I declined to attend and I feel that this will weigh against me.

In summary, I think that I may be eligible for 'reintegration' into the French nationality, albeit maybe through decree rather than declaration (the latter is a legal right for lapsed citizens, whereas the former can be rejected at the State's discretion) but I am by no means certain how to go about this.

I have emailed the French consulate asking for clarification but, unsurprisingly, I have received no reponse. I intend to write them a letter, including in it a copy of my parents' Livret de famille with my name on it, but does anyone have any better advice or insight into this process?

Many, many thanks for any help!
Ad

[g_n_a]

Hi AdLoki,

Technically, you are eligible for French citizenship, as your mother is French. Even the invitation to the JAPD probably confirms that.

Instead of writing to the consulate, I think that a better idea would be for you to visit France and enquire at the local prefecture. They'll be able to give you a much better answer.

Originally Posted by AdLoki

I think I may have posted my question in the wrong forum but I cannot link to it as I am a new member, so I will have to copy and paste my question here (apologies, I know it's frowned upon)


Hi All,

First post here and it is fairly long, so apologies in advance.

I am 28 and trying to establish whether I am eligible to hold a French passport; my circumstances are a little convoluted:

I am technically of dual nationality -- my mother is French and my father English. I was born in the UK and have a UK birth certificate, however, at the age of 9, I moved with my parents to France. At that point I was considered as a French citizen, was in the French education system, was on my mother's French passport as a minor, had a French Carte d'identité and was included on the Livret de famille.

To all intents and purposes, there we should have stayed and my dual citizenship would have been assured. However, we in fact returned to the UK after only 2.5 years and I have lived here ever since. My mother (who, despite having lived in UK for more of her life than in France, has never taken UK citizenship and remains a fully-French citizen) and father once again live in France.

I am a fluent French speaker and would really like to hold a French passport and have my French citizenship confirmed, however, I do not know whether this is possible without first taking residence in France again.

It is worth mentioning that over ten years ago I was called up for my JAPD (now called the Journée défense et citoyenneté, a replacement for mandatory military service, the attencance at which is meant to instruct you in matters of French citizenship). In my teenaged stupidity I declined to attend and I feel that this will weigh against me.

In summary, I think that I may be eligible for 'reintegration' into the French nationality, albeit maybe through decree rather than declaration (the latter is a legal right for lapsed citizens, whereas the former can be rejected at the State's discretion) but I am by no means certain how to go about this.

I have emailed the French consulate asking for clarification but, unsurprisingly, I have received no reponse. I intend to write them a letter, including in it a copy of my parents' Livret de famille with my name on it, but does anyone have any better advice or insight into this process?

Many, many thanks for any help!
Ad

[AdLoki]

Originally Posted by g_n_a

Hi AdLoki,

Technically, you are eligible for French citizenship, as your mother is French. Even the invitation to the JAPD probably confirms that.

Instead of writing to the consulate, I think that a better idea would be for you to visit France and enquire at the local prefecture. They'll be able to give you a much better answer.

Thanks, I have actually been looking into this a bit more closely and I have now uncovered the process that I need to follow -- in order to get a passport, I need to have an identity card, in order to do that I have to demonstrate my French nationality. In the absence of any formal documents confirming this, I have to go to a local tribune to apply for a certificate of nationality. To get that, I have to provide all of my British ID, as well as all of my mother's documents proving her status as a French national.

Once I have the certificate, I can apply for a national identity card (which is free) and, upon receipt of that, I can apply for the passport (about €60).

I want the passport as a definitive document to prove my French nationality. Luckily, my mother lives in France and is friends with a local judge, so I am awaiting further advice from that end too! :-)

[jacquest]

Originally Posted by AdLoki

I want the passport as a definitive document to prove my French nationality. Luckily, my mother lives in France and is friends with a local judge, so I am awaiting further advice from that end too! :-)

This is just a technicality, but bear it in mind.

The French passport DOES NOT PROVE your French Nationality. It just shows a "presumption" of French Nationality.

The documents that *prove* your Nationality are either the CNF (Certificat de Nationalité Francaise) or a Declaration de Nationalite properly registered by the corresponding ministry.

In your case, it looks like the "definitive" document is the CNF.

Once you have a CNF, you might or might not want to apply for a passport (which is an identity and travel document), but it's clearly established that you are a French National.

jacques.

[AdLoki]

Originally Posted by jacquest

This is just a technicality, but bear it in mind.

The French passport DOES NOT PROVE your French Nationality. It just shows a "presumption" of French Nationality.

The documents that *prove* your Nationality are either the CNF (Certificat de Nationalité Francaise) or a Declaration de Nationalite properly registered by the corresponding ministry.

In your case, it looks like the "definitive" document is the CNF.

Once you have a CNF, you might or might not want to apply for a passport (which is an identity and travel document), but it's clearly established that you are a French National.

jacques.

Fair point, i should probably has been more explicit -- I want to be able to prove my French nationality abroad (i.e. not in France) and it seems that having both a French and a British passport will give me flexibility when travelling. I know from experience that there are some countries where it is better to travel on a French passport than a UK one! (and vice versa)

[Bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by jacquest

This is just a technicality, but bear it in mind.

The French passport DOES NOT PROVE your French Nationality. It just shows a "presumption" of French Nationality.

The documents that *prove* your Nationality are either the CNF (Certificat de Nationalité Francaise) or a Declaration de Nationalite properly registered by the corresponding ministry.

Actually, what I have been told is that the document that "proves" your French nationality is the carte d'identité. (At least within France.) It's the reason they require a carte d'identité in order for you to get a French passport. And the reason some of the French consulates overseas make such a big deal over French nationals within their jurisdiction keeping their cartes d'identité up to date.

AdLoki - once you get your carte d'identité and your French passport, make sure you register with your local French consulate and renew the carte d'identité in a timely manner. It will save you endless grief.
Cheers,
Bev

[jacquest]

Originally Posted by Bevdeforges

Actually, what I have been told is that the document that "proves" your French nationality is the carte d'identité. (At least within France.) It's the reason they require a carte d'identité in order for you to get a French passport. And the reason some of the French consulates overseas make such a big deal over French nationals within their jurisdiction keeping their cartes d'identité up to date.

Just for the sake of "technicalities" :

La preuve matérielle de la nationalité française est constituée par le certificat de nationalité française délivré par les greffiers en chef des tribunaux d’instance.

Nationalité française - France-Diplomatie-Ministère des Affaires étrangères et européennes

Talking about "in France" or "hors de France", when you request a French passport at a consulate, if you have a carte d'identité, that's good (due to the fact that in order to have a carte d'identité you must have a CNF or a déclaration de nationalité enregistrée), but it's not compulsary. See the importance of the "A défaut" as the "basic most important thing", if "everything else fails".
Again, if you don't have a CdI, then you need the "copie integrale de votre acte de naissance".
(From a french consulate website)

Pièces à fournir :

1.- Carte consulaire, CNI ou passeport valide ou périmé depuis moins de deux ans. A défaut : certificat de nationalité française.

2.- Copie intégrale de votre acte de naissance français (indispensable), sauf si vous possédez une carte d’identité sécurisée (plastifiée) en cours de validité.

3.- Justificatif de domicile :
- titre de propriété ou bail de location ;
- quittance de loyer, de gaz ou d’électricité ;
- attestation d’assurance du logement, etc…

4.- Les photos se prennent désormais sur place.

So, the "order of factors" is that, first you get a CNF (that's the "preuve de la nationalité", having that you can get an acte de naissance (even if you were born abroad), with the acte de naissance you can get a Passport or CdI (whichever). The CdI is has no cost in France (it does have the first time in consulates), the passport has cost (always).

jacques.

[Bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by jacquest

So, the "order of factors" is that, first you get a CNF (that's the "preuve de la nationalité", having that you can get an acte de naissance (even if you were born abroad), with the acte de naissance you can get a Passport or CdI (whichever). The CdI is has no cost in France (it does have the first time in consulates), the passport has cost (always).

jacques.

Jacques, we seem to be talking at cross purposes here. You're clearly talking about a naturalized citizen getting a passport through their local consulate. A native-born French citizen doesn't generally have a CNF. (As far as I know, my husband has none and has never needed one.)

When I received my CNF, I was instructed to apply immediately for multiple copies of my French birth certificate (i.e. the one at Nantes) and to then apply for a carte d'identité and a French passport. From this point forward, the idea seems to be to keep the carte d'identité up to date and to use the French birth certificate when asked to produce a birth certificate. The CNF is only for any circumstance where my French nationality might be challenged for some reason.

It's possible that the procedures have changed in the 4 or 5 years since I obtained my French nationality.
Cheers,
Bev

[AdLoki]

Originally Posted by Bevdeforges

Jacques, we seem to be talking at cross purposes here. You're clearly talking about a naturalized citizen getting a passport through their local consulate. A native-born French citizen doesn't generally have a CNF. (As far as I know, my husband has none and has never needed one.)

When I received my CNF, I was instructed to apply immediately for multiple copies of my French birth certificate (i.e. the one at Nantes) and to then apply for a carte d'identité and a French passport. From this point forward, the idea seems to be to keep the carte d'identité up to date and to use the French birth certificate when asked to produce a birth certificate. The CNF is only for any circumstance where my French nationality might be challenged for some reason.

It's possible that the procedures have changed in the 4 or 5 years since I obtained my French nationality.
Cheers,
Bev

Bev,

Does this mean that when you got your CNF you were entitled to receive a French birth certificate, even though you weren't born in France? I'm a bit confused, I did not know that this was possible. Is that something that I should also look into?

Cheers,
Ad

[jacquest]

Originally Posted by Bevdeforges

Jacques, we seem to be talking at cross purposes here. You're clearly talking about a naturalized citizen getting a passport through their local consulate. A native-born French citizen doesn't generally have a CNF. (As far as I know, my husband has none and has never needed one.)

Hi Bev,

No, I'm not talking about "naturalised citizens" as I have no clue about that issue.

Usually a native born citizen won't "generally have a CNF" as he/she will always have a CdI or a carte d'identité. However, the "proof" of nationality is still the CNF.

Actually some months ago there was huge turmoil about many native-born citizens which were having huge trouble renewing their passports, and they had to actually request their CNFs in order to demonstrate their nationality and renew them. I've read that this procedure has been simplified after that "turmoil" of some months ago.

Originally Posted by Bevdeforges

The CNF is only for any circumstance where my French nationality might be challenged for some reason.

Exactly, that shows that it's the CNF that's the *proof* of nationality.

And, as we are talking about a fellow forum member needing a "proof of nationality", while being French native born, but a British citizen as well, and with doubts about proving his French nationality, it could be a good idea to request a CNF before he applies for CdI or Passport, should he have doubts about it. However, having been called to the JAPD should be more than enough "proof"...

Cheers
jacques.