French car culture

[Bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by rynd2it

I see that but I am surprised at it, Europe has always been "greener" than the US so I would have thought they would have led the way in alternate fuels (hybrid, electric, hydrogen) but the US (and Japan) are miles ahead in this.

Something about this comment struck me as "funny" - but it has taken me the better part of the day to put my finger on it.

I think a big part of the issue here is that of the "car culture" in Europe and (especially) in France - it's much, much different from the car culture you find in the US.

I find many people in France are amazed that the US never bothered with diesel for passenger cars. (I worked for Cummins Engine for a while, so this is a topic near and dear to my heart.) Diesel fuel has long been partially subsidized in France, and given that diesel gives better fuel economy, it is now apparently more common than gasoline for passenger cars.

I think I'm going to start a new thread on the French car culture, since it probably bears some discussion.
Cheers,
Bev

[rynd2it]

Originally Posted by Bevdeforges

I find many people in France are amazed that the US never bothered with diesel for passenger cars. (I worked for Cummins Engine for a while, so this is a topic near and dear to my heart.) Cheers,
Bev

That's easy - diesel exhaust is/was carcinogenic and under Gray Davis California placed heavy restrictions on its usage to limit emissions. They preferred CNG or even gasoline to diesel.

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/hesi...nts/diesel.pdf

And if you can't sell cars in California, you can't sell them in America.

Cheers

David

[Bevdeforges]

We've been discussing on a number of threads here lately the wisdom (or lack thereof) of importing a car from the US, or in some cases from the UK to France.

Some parts of the discussion have struck me as "odd" but it's only today that I was able to put my finger on just why this is.

The car culture in France is just very different from the car culture in the US. While cars in France are getting larger (possibly even too large for little French garages), there is still a real market for small cars. French cars are starting to be overwhelmingly diesel, whereas the US has stuck with gasoline engines, believing diesel to be sluggish and dirty. (Little do they know...)

And David has mentioned how "far ahead" the US seems to be in the matter of hybrid technology. Oddly enough, I've been impressed at the number of Priuses (plural of Prius?) I've seen in and around Paris. But cars in general (and hybrids in particular) aren't advertised nearly as much nor in the same manner that they are in the US. Perhaps the high price of fuel here just means that folks have already made their adjustments to their lifestyles to take high fuel costs into account.

I suspect much of this comes from the simple fact that the French put far less mileage (kilometrage?) on their vehicles than the Americans do. There are alternatives to driving everywhere. And frankly, I get the sense that it's considered a bit "gauche" to flaunt a fancy car - you just don't see sports cars or big, expensive cars in France in most neighborhoods. (My observation - most sports cars seem to have 75 - Parisian - license plates.) People just don't define themselves by what they drive in the same way the Americans do.

What's your sense of the "car culture" here in France? And does that maybe account for some of the reactions to Americans' inquiries about importing their cars to France?
Cheers,
Bev

[Bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by rynd2it

That's easy - diesel exhaust is/was carcinogenic and under Gray Davis California placed heavy restrictions on its usage to limit emissions. They preferred CNG or even gasoline to diesel.

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/programs/hesi...nts/diesel.pdf

And if you can't sell cars in California, you can't sell them in America.

Cheers

David

As far as I know, the diesel engines they use here in France for passenger cars aren't even available in the US. Diesel cars here are not heavy polluters like the diesel truck engines in the US.
Cheers,
Bev

[rynd2it]

Originally Posted by Bevdeforges

As far as I know, the diesel engines they use here in France for passenger cars aren't even available in the US. Diesel cars here are not heavy polluters like the diesel truck engines in the US.
Cheers,
Bev

Perception is reality - Davis basically killed diesels

Cheers

David

[frenchy]

Not sure where u live Bev, but there are Plenty of Audi Q7's, Porshe Cayenne's and BMW X5's in my neighborhood (heat of vallée de chevreuse), but unlike their US counterparts these SUVs are for the most part Turbo Diesel, and get decent mileage. Most people I know tend to drive between 20K to 40K km per year (1 or 2 Ski Trips, Weekends trip to the country, and summer vacation to the south, it all adds up), very few Hybrids, but plenty of smaller again Turbo Diesel cars. (VW Golf, Clios, Twingos, Polos, etc) All these Small to mid Size Diesel cars have similar or even better mileage that the Prius, and are a lot more fun to drive.

Sat Nav has been mainstream in even smaller cars for a few years already, it seems that US is also lagging somewhat in that area.

Another difference is the Built to order. When buying a new car in France, u can actually customize every aspect of your car (color, options, etc) The down side is that u need to wait a few weeks, but u get the car u really wanted. In the US it seems that buyers tend to settle for whatever is avail on the dealer's parking lot.

[NickZ]

Originally Posted by rynd2it

Funnily enough, with some cars (BMW, MBZ etc) having a Euro-spec car can add value.



I see that but I am surprised at it, Europe has always been "greener" than the US so I would have thought they would have led the way in alternate fuels (hybrid, electric, hydrogen) but the US (and Japan) are miles ahead in this.

All good stuff

Cheers

David

many would say miles behind my little car with the diesel engine puts out less CO2 then the same car with the natural gas engine.

Easter weekend the TV showed a review of the Nissan Infiniti convertible and the maserati grand cabrio. When they got to the section on fuel economy and pollution the presenter basically sniffed and said well we know the Japanese can't make clean fuel efficient cars. The far more powerful maserati had far better mileage and CO2 numbers.

Gasoline hybrids are just a stop gap aimed at the US and Japan. In four years I've seen three Prius.

Honda is running ads for it's Insight. The mileage is blah. It's the same size as my car but gets 15+% worse mileage and costs more. Oh and it has less equipment.

If it wasn't for the various incentives I doubt anybody would buy a gasoline hybrid. They use more fuel then similar diesel engines. I know Toyota has dropped the price of the Prius the last few years but it's still not much less then far nicer cars that get better mileage. most people that drive a lot are mainly highway drivers. Think about it an hour in city traffic is an hour but it's not many miles. An hour of high speed highway is still an hour but you go a lot further. The hybrids often get far worse highway numbers while the diesels get better.

Peugot a few years back showed a hybrid SUV. 90mpg. Sounds nice but the stock diesel is over 55mpg. Not many people will pay the etc and wait ten years to break even. They had claimed it would go on sale in 2011 or 2012. But with the newer better plain diesel engines I bet that date has been pushed back.

Supposedly mercedes is selling some hybrid diesel SUVs this year.

[GALLUS]

I think I'm going to start a new thread on the French car culture, since it probably bears some discussion.
Cheers,
Bev

Excellent idea. thanks

[Bevdeforges]

I'm not all that far from you, and I've noticed the increase in SUVs and other big cars out your way. But, the French (European) SUVs are still only about half the size of the SUVs in the US and, like you say, far more likely to be turbo diesel.

The sat nav is an interesting item. I've seen a few new cars here with the sat nav built in, but I find the "add-on" GPS that you stick on the windshield to be far more practical. (Wouldn't be the first time I'm out of step with the mainstream...)

Where you are, though, do you find that the larger cars tend to be company cars? I'll admit that things are changing, and even the French are buying larger cars than before - but nothing like the big cars the Americans tend to favor. (Not practical on the narrow roads here, for one thing!)

The built to order thing used to be the way in the US, but I guess US attention spans kind of got short or something. There is definitely an element of "impulse buying" even with cars in the US.

But what got me started on this was the one nice summer day we had last week. Went out to do some errands, and was surprised and amused to see two jaunty little sports cars with their tops down - the first of the season - both driven by white-haired men, "at least" in their sixties. In the US, there are all sorts of sports cars on the road (I used to have a rather sporty version of a Toyota Corolla - flip headlights and the whole bit!). Here, in France, they're rather rare - and usually an old man's car. (My apologies to anyone feeling insulted here - it's just my observation.)
Cheers,
Bev

[frenchy]

I agree with your observations about Sports car, these tend to be associated with guys in their Mid life crisis... However, I'm seeing a growing trend towards convertibles. A see quite a lot of 307/308 cc, Mini Cooper convertibles, VW EOS etc. And they tend to be driven in large proportion by female drivers.

Also while I do find US sports car (Mustangs etc) to look very good, they seem to be powered by very average engine. (not really fuel efficient, but not very zippy either). I'm finding their Euro counterparts to be both much more fuel efficient, and a lot more peppy.