Is Cultural Xenophobia More Common in France?

[matrym]

I haven't been to France, but from what I've read, it's an excellent place to live.

From government policies like nuclear power or social medecine, or lifestyle choices such as high quality food and a greater appreciation for leisure time, the country sounds like they've got it figured out.

Unfortunately, I've also read that the country, more so than most others, is filled with cultural xenophobia. Speaking the language poorly, not wearing the right clothing, etc seems to be considered a larger social crime than it might be elsewhere.

My question to you - is this true? Please answer as objectively as you can. And if you are currently an expat in France but confirm this belief, please also tell me what pros outweigh this con.

I would be interested to know where you've read this - e.g. the likes of general forum chat, or a more reliable source?

We've considered various aspects of this before (search racism, intolerance), and as far as I recall, the general conclusion was that the French are little different to any other nationality in this respect. They are no more xenophobic, culturally or otherwise, than anyone else.

It does depend to an extent in which echelons of French society you mix, but they mostly have a pretty relaxed attitude to the social misdemeanours you mention. However there is a key difference between 'speaking the language poorly', and 'making little or no effort to express oneself in French'. France is a proud nation, and they - rightfully in my view - consider that guests in their country should make the effort to integrate, and this includes learning, and expressing oneself, in the language of the country.

Oh, and the French are a long way from having it all figured out! Only a few rather deluded people, once they've lived here for a while, would claim that they are living in Utopia, I'm afraid.

[Bevdeforges]

Like FB says, we've discussed variations of this question before and haven't really arrived at a definitive conclusion.

I'd say the expression "cultural xenophobia" is perhaps a bit strong. I think of it much more as France being a country of small towns (over 30,000 of them, to be a little more precise). In small towns (the world over) people tend to be more comfortable with who and what they know. Newcomers are expected to prove themselves to the locals, not necessarily the other way around, and are expected to adapt to the pecking order already in place. (Believe me, this is true in small towns I've known and loved in the US!!!)

That said, the Parisians are viewed with a certain level of skepticism by most of the rest of France (much like New Yorkers are views as "different" in the US). They drive too fast (and they drive flash cars that are considered a bit OTT outside Paris), they talk too fast and they have strange expectations about how other people should behave, dress, act, etc. Again, probably more a function of city mouse vs. country mouse and not unheard of in most parts of the world.

A couple interesting books for you if you want to delve into this a bit deeper:

The Discovery of France by Graham Robb is a sort of social history of the development of France outside of Paris, with a great explanation of how this "small town mentality" has influenced the country. (Makes you realize that French is an imposed language - until the mid 19th century it wasn't really all that widely spoken in many parts.)

Ces impossibles français by Louis-Bernard Robitaille - in french, but it really ought to be translated into English one of these days. The author is "an american from Québec" according to the cover notes (which I think means he's Canadian) and he has some marvelous discussions about some of the ambiguities and contradictions of the French - at least as they appear to us North Americans. (Admit it, the Americans must seem at least as strange to the French - at least they do now to me.)

I've always had the impression that the French were operating under a different set of rules and thanks to the Robitaille book, I've found at least one of the rule books - a "classic" volume on etiquette that I may have to purchase, just to know what rules I'm breaking.

There is also the constant issue that affects most expats - the sense of being "out of the loop" because you don't know the language better, you don't understand the customs and traditions, etc. etc. I've had the same feeling when living in Germany and the UK. France is a country of traditions and history, and so maybe the feeling is a bit stronger here than elsewhere when you aren't part of the "in" crowd.
Cheers,
Bev

[NickZ]

How much of this is just social cues?

A couple weeks back here in Italy I saw a local large builder. Bright red jeans bordering on pink. A jacket that wouldn't pass in US business circles. Flowing white hair past his collar. Nobody batted an eye. He could have worn a grey suit and gotten the same reaction. OTOH he would have drawn serious looks in much of North America.

[contentedscot]

Bev - you're right - French is an imposed language here - and the authorities in Paris used the same methods as the authorities did in London to suppress Gaelic in Scotland.

I also agree that every effort should be made to integrate here - and that means learning + using the language.

I am sure that in the past 2 years I have made a number of faux pas but none has been held against me. Apologising and asking for clarification help - as does close observation in the first instance. This year, for example, we will make sure we take finger food to the local fête des voisins, and I have promised a bottle of decent whisky as opposed to the 3 year-old King Anne that gets served.

I would go as far as to say that a number of French people have very quickly welcomed us as firm friends - just waiting for the first to offer us the use of their summer retreat - but progress is being made here.

[tinytina]

I know what you mean I had heard these things to, but since being in France which isn't too long, I have seen a pretty relaxed attitude from most people and the majority of the people I have come across in Lyon that don't care too much about how they look, some of my friends mates and their girlfriends came over the other night they were all wearing tracksuits and are in their early 20's, friendly and well educated types of people, so i think it's definitely a generalisation.

Originally Posted by NickZ

OTOH he would have drawn serious looks in much of North America.

Vaguely connected - my 2p-worth.

There's a local chap, dunno his origins but he could pass for a 'Red Indian' (oops sorry 'Native American' in these PC times) Anyway, he has obviously some interest in such heritage.

He acts as a 'roadie' for several local folk singers, and he 'makes an effort' to dress up for such occasions - I've often been in various Indian Territories and he does look quite, er, authentic. Ive seen him around also when not roadying, and he dresses quite normally.

Anyway, the reaction to him in costume is usually snide, the frogs just don't know how to take him, and it's actually a bit embarrassing - since they'll happily flock to line dancing evenings in full regalia themselves.

[contentedscot]

Have to change my ideas about xenophobia among the French - had a salutary experience yesterday. We went to visit a French friend for lunch - her 5 year-old daughter had two friends staying - a 3 year-old girl and her brother, 6.

Of course, lunch took a good few hours, and in the early evening another set of visitors cam. As he saw their car coming down the driveway, the little boy said " J'espère qu'il sont des français".

And after him eating the scones and sweets we had brought ......

[Coton90]

Originally Posted by minesthechevy

Vaguely connected - my 2p-worth.

There's a local chap, dunno his origins but he could pass for a 'Red Indian' (oops sorry 'Native American' in these PC times) Anyway, he has obviously some interest in such heritage.

He acts as a 'roadie' for several local folk singers, and he 'makes an effort' to dress up for such occasions - I've often been in various Indian Territories and he does look quite, er, authentic. Ive seen him around also when not roadying, and he dresses quite normally.

Anyway, the reaction to him in costume is usually snide, the frogs just don't know how to take him, and it's actually a bit embarrassing - since they'll happily flock to line dancing evenings in full regalia themselves.

Interesting. The Germans have this kind of admiration for Indians (I'm told this is the term Indians prefer, as opposed to Native American). I think this stems from this romantic notion they have of the "noble savage", this plus the popularity of the Karl May Westerns with Winnetou. At least this was the case in Hessen, Baden-Wurtemburg, and Rhineland-Pfalz. I have no idea what they think of Indians in Nieder-Sachsen. BTW, you sound like a musician.

Originally Posted by Coton90

Interesting. The Germans have this kind of admiration for Indians ...................... BTW, you sound like a musician.

Hmm, not just for the Indians.

About 35 years ago, I had a trip to Germany with my Scottish B-i-L to see some (German) friends of his. On a Sunday afternoon, we were sitting around letting lunch digest and more friends, of all ages, started to arrive. S'funny, I thought, they weren't here for the food and there's not enough nibbles left to go round.

Mein Host then announced that 'Ve Vill Now Vatch Bonanza'. Silence fell, the TV went on, and the only sounds for teh next 45 minutes were Hoss Cartwright talking about Der OberPferdenLederSitzUpon; about 30 totally enthralled Jerries; and me, at the back, stifling teh gigglefits wondering if this was just Der German Senze of Humour.

Now THAT's a 'cultural divide', in my book.......

Me, a musician? Er, no, not a musical bone in my body, sorry.