Moving to france -- need help/advice

[Synt4x]

Hello, I am an american student who has 1 more year left to go on my Bachelors Degree (in Computer Science). I am thinking about moving to France with my girlfriend (French) for two years while she finishes her Masters degree. If I come I will lose my scholarship, etc., so that will be a financial burden, but she seems dead set that she wants to finish her master's BEFORE I go back to finish school. So, that said, will it be possible for me to get a decent job while i'm there (In my field of programming / computers ), and if not, will it be possible for me to get a job at a local shop or something like that. She lives in the Alsace / Strasborg region.

If I can get a job, I am very confused on how it work's for American's working in France. How much tax will I pay to France, will I have to continue to pay taxes to the states? It feels like I will have to pay taxes to the states, but it wouldnt make sense to get doubly taxed. Im sorry to have so many questions here but im really confused about the whole situation, so any insight you could provide me would be fantastic. Thank you very much,

-Bryan

[Synt4x]

I also wanted to state, as I forgot earlier, that I have lived with her and another french roomate now for almost a year so I speak a LITTLE french, but not enough to work in a french speaking establishment (although I hope that will change once i've lived there for a little while). How will this change my ability to get a job, and affect me otherwise? Thanks again!!!!


-Bryan

[Bevdeforges]

Hi Bryan, and welcome to the forum.

OK - it will be difficult to find a job in France, especially straight out of school with no working experience. And basically, you need a job in France in order to get a visa. If you had an EU nationality, it would be a slightly brighter picture, but getting a work visa from outside the EU is pretty tough these days.

Despite some improvement in the employment picture here, the young folks just out of school still have considerable difficulty finding a first job - and unless you have some qualification that a French graduate doesn't, your chances of acing out a newly graduated French person are not good.

IF you can get a job in France, you will be subject to French income tax, based on being "tax resident" in France. You will still have to file US income tax forms, but there is something called the "Overseas Earned Income Exemption" that means that you don't pay US taxes on the first $80,000 of "earned income" (i.e. salary) if you are resident outside the US. You continue to pay US income tax on any "passive income" like interest or dividends from the US (and the French give you a credit against the taxes on that).

Honestly, you'd do better to finish your degree while she does hers. Or maybe she could do a US masters degree. (The French "maitrise" is not exactly the same thing as a masters.)

But it seems a bit unfair of her to ask you to interrupt your degree program like that. Even if you were to get married before you go over there, you'd be restricted from working in France for at least a year (and I think they have increased that now to two years) if you come over as a spouse. Think it over carefully before you make any decisions, and do consider all your options. A year or two apart while finishing your schooling could well make your opportunities much better in one country or the other.

I don't mean to discourage you - but I spent almost two years here in France as a "sans papiers" (illegal alien) because I got bad advice and my (now) husband had no idea what the rules were about visas in France. It's not fun, being illegal, and France can be an incredibly frustrating country if you're on the wrong side of the law.
Cheers,
Bev

[Synt4x]

Ok, so a few things to clairfy:

1) I do have working experience, I worked in a network lab programming for 2 years, there is only one other lab like it in the entire world (Japan), so I feel that gives me a considerable edge, or at least it does when finding a job in the US, and also have other outstanding honors like a perfect score on the AP Computer Science Exam, etc.

2) Normally I would be fine in being apart for some time while we finish our degrees, but it is a fairly new (6 month) relationship, and to instantly be apart for two years In My Opinion would be almost like giving up on the relationship.

3) I also happen to be a semi-professional Poker Player, and although I hear the French look down on this quite a bit ;p, I pay for school and make a fairly solid income from it, so without work I would certainly be able to sustain myself.

So I guess my follow up questions would be if any of your opinions change with the above knowledge, and also, will my poker winnings be taxed in French Income Tax? I was under the impression that this is considered a 'hazard game' and therefore will not be taxed, but im not positive on that. And lastly, can you explain how the French 'Maitrise' differs from a Masters degree?

Also, just how hard will it be for me to get a working visa coming from the US, and how far in advanced should I start the paperwork? Thank you very much for your advice, and your reponse, I appreciate having some fresh perspective into the whole situation,

-Bryan

[Bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by Synt4x

1) I do have working experience, I worked in a network lab programming for 2 years, there is only one other lab like it in the entire world (Japan), so I feel that gives me a considerable edge, or at least it does when finding a job in the US, and also have other outstanding honors like a perfect score on the AP Computer Science Exam, etc.

2) Normally I would be fine in being apart for some time while we finish our degrees, but it is a fairly new (6 month) relationship, and to instantly be apart for two years In My Opinion would be almost like giving up on the relationship.

3) I also happen to be a semi-professional Poker Player, and although I hear the French look down on this quite a bit ;p, I pay for school and make a fairly solid income from it, so without work I would certainly be able to sustain myself.

1) The French tend not to recognize non-French academic awards and qualifications, so the AP scores, while impressive, won't do much toward finding you a job. The work experience might help - if there is a similar lab in France - but two years' experience is a bit light. From over here it would be considered a "temporary job" (what they call a CDD).

2) I sympathize. But again, it won't help you in getting a job in France - especially in Alsace.

3) I'm not sure where you'll find the poker games to sustain you here, unless there are some casinos in Alsace. Not sure of the taxability of poker winnings, but your main problem will be getting hooked up with a "caisse" for your social insurances. You do have to have health coverage, plus contribute to retirement and other social plans while you are earning a living over here.

The difference between a French maitrise and a US masters is difficult to describe. Basically in job ads in France, they just ask for "bac +" a certain number of years of schooling. Bac+ 3 is more or less a bachelor's degree and bac+ 5 is assumed to be a maitrise. In the US, a masters is considered an intermediate step to a PhD. In France, a maitrise is where most folks finish their higher education, with no connection to a doctorate. If you come over without completing your bachelors degree, the best you can claim is probably bac+2 which puts you in sort of a limbo state as far as qualifications are concerned.

As for the working visa, you can't apply for it until you have a job offer (in French) in hand. The French consulate in the US probably won't even give you the forms unless you have a written job offer. If you can hook up with some sort of student exchange program, you might be able to get a visa that would allow you to go over and look for a job for a year or so. CIEE used to be the program everyone went on, but these days they seem to be more into study programs, at least in France. If there is a CIEE or other work exchange program at your school, you can check with them. But to get a regular visa, you probably have to consider making at least one trip over to look for work (and take interviews).

Another option would be to look into exchange programs in Germany, just over the border. I used to live in Freiburg, which is definitely commuting distance from most of Alsace. The drill there is the same - find the job first, then get the visa - but the Germans are somewhat more open to hiring non-EU nationals, even those who don't speak German. Or you could consider looking for work in the UK or Switzerland, which would at least put you close enough to have most weekends together.
Cheers,
Bev

[Synt4x]

Well, luckily for me I make the large bulk of my income playing poker Online, and not in casinos, so financially I think I will be able to cope, this is alot to take in though, so im going to take some time and reflect on it. during this time I'll be searching for internships in the states for her as an option for me to finish my schooling next year, and since im in Budapest for a semester right now, may take a trip out at the end of the semester to the Alsace area to look for some job offers to take back and work on a visa. Thank you so much for your time and advice,

-Bryan

[xtina]

Hi Bryan,

You might think about applying to American companies who have offices in France. For example in Velizy-Villacoublay (about 15 miles out of Paris, not on the Metro though) there is a big business park where Sun Microsystems and Blizzard Entertainment, to name only two, have offices. Companies like these sometimes conduct business in English, so despite not speaking French you may still be able to find a job.

I think once you have a job lined up you can apply for a working visa, as other people have described above.

I don't know that either of these companies will let you play poker online during work hours though

Best of luck!

[Synt4x]

haha! thank you very much, this seems like my best option as of right now, and I guess that while finishing my degree next year I will also be applying to as many companies as I can that have French offices. Thanks for the response!

and I think i'll be able to take a few hours off of poker to do "real work" 9-5 each day

-Bryan

[yeehoo]

I think you would have a very difficult time landing a job for reasons mentioned in other answers above. Secondly they're not likely to give you a work visa unless you have a job. Well, more than just not likely - it's probably impossible.

My guess is your best bet would be to stay in france unofficially - and just consider yourself a U.S. resident and pay your taxes in the u.s. Earn your money with your online poker and even try finding some online programming work. Then spend your time in france learning french at a school like Alliance Francaise. It will be awhile before you really know some french.

Of course that leaves you without health insurance. French health care is really good and really inexpensive when compared to the u.s. so that normally wouldn't be a problem except in case of some sort of bad accident or something. On the other hand, considering the state of the health care systemin american, even then you might be better off here than in the u.s. Ha!

Finally, maybe this is intrusive, but you might really be better off staying in the U.S. and finishing your degree. After all that seems to be what your girlfriend is doing.

[dcat]

There are also companies that offer expat health insurance. I don't know the names of any, maybe someone else on this list could fill in. But at least that way you could be convered for accidents or something serious.

Dvora

Originally Posted by yeehoo

I think you would have a very difficult time landing a job for reasons mentioned in other answers above. Secondly they're not likely to give you a work visa unless you have a job. Well, more than just not likely - it's probably impossible.

My guess is your best bet would be to stay in france unofficially - and just consider yourself a U.S. resident and pay your taxes in the u.s. Earn your money with your online poker and even try finding some online programming work. Then spend your time in france learning french at a school like Alliance Francaise. It will be awhile before you really know some french.

Of course that leaves you without health insurance. French health care is really good and really inexpensive when compared to the u.s. so that normally wouldn't be a problem except in case of some sort of bad accident or something. On the other hand, considering the state of the health care systemin american, even then you might be better off here than in the u.s. Ha!

Finally, maybe this is intrusive, but you might really be better off staying in the U.S. and finishing your degree. After all that seems to be what your girlfriend is doing.