What does the entry visa state, For non EU spouse

[frogblogger]

Originally Posted by Phil_neuk

That’s interesting. It seems like they don’t get many EU citizens spouses applying for a carte de séjour at your local mairie, assuming these changes were implemented in June 2009. Can I ask, is this a main mairie, or just a small one?

As a matter of interest, did the French embassy in Bangkok ask to see any documents apart from your wife’s passport and your marriage certificate?

Also when arriving in France, did the officials only want to see her passport?
This could be useful for other forum users also.

For other who are interested, information about the different types of Schengen visas can be read about here.

Phil

It's a small mairie, but from what my contact at the Vaucluse Préfecture told me, few ever have to deal with this situation, and the documentation hasn't filtered through in "some" cases. I had to give the mairie official the Préfecture contact's name, phone number and email, so she could find out more. I'm waiting to hear back from her.

My wife had to produce several documents at the Bangkok French Embassy. The translated marriage certificate had to be approved by the British Consulate before the French would accept it. Ditto with the copy of my passport, stamped as a true likeness by the Consulate. Together those cost me several thousand baht - British consular document services abroad are a real rip-off. I think it was 2,800 baht alone for a standard print-off headed letter, saying:

Marriage in Thailand

I can confirm that a civil marriage which takes place in Thailand and is valid under Thai law, would normally be recognised under British Law.

I have seen the marriage certificate of XXXXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXXXX, who were married in XXXXX on XXXXXXX. I am satisfied that if this marriage is valid under Thai law (and I have no reason to suggest it is not), that the marriage would also be recognised under UK law.

My wife had to produce evidence of my permanent residence in France (I had an electric and water bill). The embassy also wanted to see the translated birth certificate of our daughter for some reason.

Yes - on arrival in France, immigration only wanted to see her passport (and that of my daughter of course), no other documentation.

[frogblogger]

Originally Posted by Phil_neuk

Do you mean regarding the directive 2004/38/EC? If so they should do as it came into force over 5 years ago.

As regards the PACS being the only kind of unmarried partnership the French will recognize, well I hope Solvit will change that as they are in breach of EU legislation.

Looking at that legislation, it states:

The right of all Union citizens to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States should, if it is to be exercised under objective conditions of freedom and dignity, be also granted to their family members, irrespective of nationality. For the purposes of this Directive, the definition of "family member" should also include the registered partner if the legislation of the host Member State treats registered partnership as equivalent to marriage.

Which seems to provide an out for the likes of France, if they wish to restrict their definition of unmarried partnerships to those formalised under the PACS arrangement.

[Phil_neuk]

Originally Posted by frogblogger

It's a small mairie, but from what my contact at the Vaucluse Préfecture told me, few ever have to deal with this situation, and the documentation hasn't filtered through in "some" cases. I had to give the mairie official the Préfecture contact's name, phone number and email, so she could find out more. I'm waiting to hear back from her.

My wife had to produce several documents at the Bangkok French Embassy. The translated marriage certificate had to be approved by the British Consulate before the French would accept it. Ditto with the copy of my passport, stamped as a true likeness by the Consulate. Together those cost me several thousand baht - British consular document services abroad are a real rip-off. I think it was 2,800 baht alone for a standard print-off headed letter, saying:



My wife had to produce evidence of my permanent residence in France (I had an electric and water bill). The embassy also wanted to see the translated birth certificate of our daughter for some reason.

Yes - on arrival in France, immigration only wanted to see her passport (and that of my daughter of course), no other documentation.

Pete, regarding the additional documents you had to produce, On this website European Commission - Your Europe - Citizens - for their family members who are not Union citizens themselves

It clearly states –

Consular officers issuing the visas may not:
 ask you to produce any documents other than a valid passport and documents attesting to your family link with a Union citizen and proof of dependence, where applicable, such as to furnish proof of means to support yourself, travel tickets, employment certificate, pay slips, bank statements, proof of accommodation, means of subsistence, medical certificate …
 ask you how much money you have to spend;
 ask you questions regarding the purpose and duration of your trip.

So basically by insisting on proof of accommodation in France, in order to issue an entry visa, they were therefore in breach of EU legislation.

From experience the French embassy in Bangkok like to be awkward. (in fact generally embassies in Thailand seem to enjoy making visa’s difficult for Thai’s, unless they are wealthy, in my opinion.

The French will reply to email questions but when you ask them something that they don’t like, they simply don’t reply to the email. I know this as I have been in contact with them from different email addresses I use.

Yes I agree, British consular document services abroad are a real rip-off.

Phil

[Phil_neuk]

Originally Posted by frogblogger

Looking at that legislation, it states:


Which seems to provide an out for the likes of France, if they wish to restrict their definition of unmarried partnerships to those formalised under the PACS arrangement.

This link EUROPA - Justice and Home Affairs - Freedom, Security and Justice - Movement and residence
States…..

• To facilitate the movement of family members irrespective of whether they are EU nationals or not. The definition of 'family members' covers for the first time registered partners under the legislation of a Member State, if the legislation of the host Member State treats registered partners as equivalent to marriage. Other partners of EU citizens will not have an automatic right to entry and residence in the host Member State. However, the host Member State will have to "facilitate" the entry and residence of the partners with whom the EU citizen has a "durable relationship duly attested", taking into consideration their relationship with the EU citizen. Family members who are nationals of third countries also enjoy greater legal protection, for example in the event of death of the EU citizen on whom they depend, or the dissolution of the marriage under certain circumstances.

The French embassy in Bangkok told us when we applied on 14th October 2009 that France doesn’t accept registered partnerships and they pointed out article 2.2 (b) which states –

“the partner with whom the Union citizen has contracted a registered partnership, on the basis of the legislation of a Member State, if the legislation of the host Member State treats registered partnerships as equivalent to marriage and in accordance with the conditions laid down in the relevant legislation of the host Member State”

So I told them that I am fully aware of that, which is why I was not asking for an entry permit on the basis of article 2.2.(b) but wish to exercise EU Treaty Rights, pursuant to article 3(2)(b) of European Parliament and Council Directive 2004/38/EC for an entry visa/permit for my partner on the basis of Article 3.2 (b) for, ‘the partner with whom the Union citizen has a durable relationship, duly attested’

They wouldn’t have it and just said you have to be married. So I complained to Solvit to see what they can do.

However since I’ve been researching I believe it doesn’t matter to much how we get to France but it will be then we have to tell the authorities there that my partner is entitled to apply for residency as my partner.

For others who may be in a similar situation living together as unmarried partners, there is more info about other family members who are beneficiaries here

The more people who complain about incorrect implementation of the 2004/38/EC directive the easier it should become for other unmarried couples. I hope this info helps.

Phil

[Bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by Phil_neuk

However since I’ve been researching I believe it doesn’t matter to much how we get to France but it will be then we have to tell the authorities there that my partner is entitled to apply for residency as my partner.

Well, all I can say is "good luck with that." I'm not sure you can convince a French court of your position. Anglo-saxon law is notorious for parsing specific meaning out of specific words or phrasing. French law is based more on pointing out contradictions in existing statutes, and then arguing which one takes precedence over the other.

As far as the proof of accommodation goes, the way I read the section you quoted, this is specifically permitted as a form of "proof of dependence." (It would probably be a good idea to check the French translation of that section, especially as regards the punctuation. I've had some interesting arguments over placement of commas here in France...)

As far as whether the French "have to" recognize a "duly attested" relationship, I think you're going to be disappointed. There are lots of interpretations of that particular phrasing and any French attorney worth his fees can probably argue that "duly attested" means a PACS and thus doesn't contradict the other section of the law at all.

I've found that laymen just get in trouble trying to cite chapter and verse to French functionnaires. There are far more effective ways to work around bureaucrats and their rules.
Cheers,
Bev

[Phil_neuk]

I've found that laymen just get in trouble trying to cite chapter and verse to French functionnaires. There are far more effective ways to work around bureaucrats and their rules.
Cheers,
Bev

I would be very interested to know what they are? Please tell

[Bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by Phil_neuk

I would be very interested to know what they are? Please tell

Being really, really nice to them. (Obnoxiously so, in fact.)

Explaining the problem to them and asking them to help you, rather than laying out the solution you want. (Actually, this is dumping the problem in their lap - but don't let them know this... )

Take names of everyone you deal with. (Try and find a "neutral" reason to do this - like so you can call them back.) It does tend to keep them from making up stuff and you can always drop the name if you get in trouble later for following the advice they gave you.

Always speak French with them. And if possible, always start your sentences with terms of agreement, like "oui, c'est vrai" even if you are disagreeing with them. In fact, rather than disagreeing with anything they say, better to phrase it as a question.

Never ever tell a fonctionnaire they are "wrong" or have "made a mistake." If they contradict something another fonctionnaire has told you, you may want to offer to tell the first guy that the second guy says he has made a mistake, but only to be "helpful."

Always assume you'll have to make multiple visits to an office to fulfill their paperwork requirements. I've actually found that you can get around some of the stupider requirements, but only if you're very nice to them and acknowledge that you know you are causing them a problem, but have a very very good (non-threatening) argument as to why you can't produce what they want.

It probably helps to have a degree in theater and be able to drain every trace of sarcasm or anger from your face and voice. I usually try to go for the wide eyed innocent approach, but being a girl, I think that works better for me than it would for you.

As you might expect, I have lots of stories to illustrate all these points, but we don't have time or room for them right now.
Cheers,
Bev

[frogblogger]

I've found that laymen just get in trouble trying to cite chapter and verse to French functionnaires. There are far more effective ways to work around bureaucrats and their rules.
Cheers,
Bev

Originally Posted by Phil_neuk

I would be very interested to know what they are? Please tell

Once in France, the main method used by the French themselves is 'pretend they don't exist and then hope for the best'...

(Otherwise, Bev's suggestions make a lot of sense (and as you live in Thailand, you'll recognise the benefits of behaving that way towards the Thai authorities, even when they don't deserve it. It's a 'face' thing with the French too ...)

[Phil_neuk]

Originally Posted by Bevdeforges

Being really, really nice to them. (Obnoxiously so, in fact.)

Explaining the problem to them and asking them to help you, rather than laying out the solution you want. (Actually, this is dumping the problem in their lap - but don't let them know this... )

Take names of everyone you deal with. (Try and find a "neutral" reason to do this - like so you can call them back.) It does tend to keep them from making up stuff and you can always drop the name if you get in trouble later for following the advice they gave you.

Always speak French with them. And if possible, always start your sentences with terms of agreement, like "oui, c'est vrai" even if you are disagreeing with them. In fact, rather than disagreeing with anything they say, better to phrase it as a question.

Never ever tell a fonctionnaire they are "wrong" or have "made a mistake." If they contradict something another fonctionnaire has told you, you may want to offer to tell the first guy that the second guy says he has made a mistake, but only to be "helpful."

Always assume you'll have to make multiple visits to an office to fulfill their paperwork requirements. I've actually found that you can get around some of the stupider requirements, but only if you're very nice to them and acknowledge that you know you are causing them a problem, but have a very very good (non-threatening) argument as to why you can't produce what they want.

It probably helps to have a degree in theater and be able to drain every trace of sarcasm or anger from your face and voice. I usually try to go for the wide eyed innocent approach, but being a girl, I think that works better for me than it would for you.

As you might expect, I have lots of stories to illustrate all these points, but we don't have time or room for them right now.
Cheers,
Bev

Well Bev & Pete, that’s interesting advice I must say, which does make sense, especially when you’re just applying for some basic renewal of paperwork or something similar.

However when faced with an issue that they aren’t aware of, like EU legislation, then I suppose the best way to go is, again be polite and nice and maybe suggest/ask if they could perhaps check with someone else (i.e. superiors) and should we come back later? Yes/no?

BTW, how many off these officials usually speak a bit of English? Or rather enough to understand what’s being asked?

I just thought about when I emailed some of the prefectures asking what documents they wold need to see, I emailed in English. What % of them do you think will be able to read English? Perhaps I should email again with a Google translated email? What do you reckon?

Cheers, Phil

[frogblogger]

It's not so much whether any can read English, it's whether they are required to be able to read English to work at the préfectures. And they aren't, or at least, I've never come across a fonctionnaire outside of immigration/foreign ministry departments that actually admits to speaking the language in an official capacity (away from the office is another matter).

In the direct meetings and written exchanges I've had, I should have mentioned that they were all in French. I'm not actually sure of the legalities iinvolved, ie whether internal civil servants in France are even obliged to acknowledge communications received in English, any more than in Swahili or Mandarin Chinese. It's bad enough getting a reply to courteous queries written in French.

The consulates/embassies, well that's another matter. But even there bear in mind that it is only quite recently that they have reluctantly agreed to accept forms completed in English as well as French, or sworn translations of the likes of Thai documents in English.