Planning permission-any ideas?

[emmahaynes]

Ok guys so we're setting about our dream of living simply. Yes we're those hippies that want to live green and eco friendly (yawn)

So the thing is we're trying to figure out whether or not we need planning permission. I read somewhere that if the construction is less than 20 metres squared the we don't need planning permission-is this true? If so, is there any limit on height?

Also, I figure that placing a caravan on a piece of land doesn't require planning permission because it's a movable structure-is there some loophole that we could use to make our home under these guidelines? We were considering shipping containers because they are in theory a movable structure. Anything that doesn't require foundations should fall into the same category right? If I'm wrong please correct me...

Basically we're looking for some way to purchase a piece of land and build some form of structure there that wont cause a problem with the local authorities.
It's not like we're building a real house, we're sticking mud together-lol.

We don't have the money to facilitate purchasing land that already has planning permission and the likelihood of us finding land that has permission to build an eco home is slim to none.

We really can't afford to buy land and apply for permission on the off chance that permission is refused and we have land that we can't do anything with.

We know it can be done because people all over the world have done it and specifically it's been done in Brittany.

The thing with building in France is that the climate would be perfect for growing a variety of crops and homeschooling in France is legal. It's a place I've always wanted to live in and I actually speak French! (well, basic french anyway.) I wouldn't say I'm fluent but I know enough to make conversation and get my point across. I'm also improving my skills (as well as juggling a whole new skill set required for building a house!)

So big post over and I apologise for the rant

All offerings of help are greatfully received...

Emma

[Bevdeforges]

Hm, you should talk to the guy camped out in a caravan over on the piece of agricultural land near us.... He's been living in the caravan for about a year now, and is assembling some sort of structure/storage facility out of what looks like the shells of those mobile classroom things they use in some places.

The under 20 m2 rule applies, I think, to "outbuildings" constructed on a buildable property. It's like if you want to add a pool house, shed or (as we did) donkey barn on a piece of property where there is already a house. You don't need "permission" but you do need to file a "declaration" of what you're planning on building - with architectural drawings and everything. How a declaration differs from a building permit application I have no idea, except maybe it's a little less expensive. You have to wait for "approval" of the declaration before you can begin building. Then there are a bunch of rules about how far from the middle of the street, how far from the nearest structure and so forth you can put one of these under-20 m2 buildings.

As far as the mobile structures goes, you're right - and you're following in the footsteps of numerous French farmers who do similar things. I'm only aware of this being done on "agricultural" land - i.e. land with no building authorization except (there's always an "except" in France) for farmers. Our neighbor (who I call "Caravan man") has even tapped into the local water and sewer system, though he has not got electricity other than his generator (which apparently powers his television). Recently, he even has put up a mail box on the road, though I don't know if he gets anything other than publicity flyers.

But, I am not at all certain of the legality of his living arrangements. He has located the caravan and assorted structural stuff at the far end of his lot - away from the main road where it can't be easily seen. It surprises me that there aren't local laws that would dictate some minimum standards for habitability, even of a portable abode like a caravan - at least as far as sanitation goes (which may explain his water and sewer hook up).

If you're serious about doing something like this, I would check carefully the cadastre and POS for any piece of agricultural land, then be very very sure to befriend your farmer neighbors - or any people living nearby in "normal" type houses. If you piss any of them off, or they just don't like having "foreigners" around, they could denounce you to the officials. If they like you, they will probably give you ideas for how to keep your abode just this side of legal, since they all seem to be experts in the process. But be careful, because a change in the mayor or town council could mark a change in enforcement policies.
Cheers,
Bev

[emmahaynes]

Originally Posted by Bevdeforges

Hm, you should talk to the guy camped out in a caravan over on the piece of agricultural land near us.... He's been living in the caravan for about a year now, and is assembling some sort of structure/storage facility out of what looks like the shells of those mobile classroom things they use in some places.

Curious chap...sounds like he's building from portacabins or shipping containers. That was a thought I had because 'technically' it's a movable structure. There is no permanence about it if it isn't concreted in with foundations etc.

The under 20 m2 rule applies, I think, to "outbuildings" constructed on a buildable property. It's like if you want to add a pool house, shed or (as we did) donkey barn on a piece of property where there is already a house. You don't need "permission" but you do need to file a "declaration" of what you're planning on building - with architectural drawings and everything. How a declaration differs from a building permit application I have no idea, except maybe it's a little less expensive. You have to wait for "approval" of the declaration before you can begin building. Then there are a bunch of rules about how far from the middle of the street, how far from the nearest structure and so forth you can put one of these under-20 m2 buildings.

This sounds like completely the opposite of what we want. We just want something simple that we can make without being bugged by the authorities. I'm working on the movable theory. I think it's gonna be the only way we can achieve this (at least initially).

As far as the mobile structures goes, you're right - and you're following in the footsteps of numerous French farmers who do similar things. I'm only aware of this being done on "agricultural" land - i.e. land with no building authorization except (there's always an "except" in France) for farmers.

This is the land we've been looking at. No permission whatsoever for anything.
When you say mobile structures, what sort of hings have you seen farmers do? Just simply caravans or anything else?

Our neighbor (who I call "Caravan man") has even tapped into the local water and sewer system, though he has not got electricity other than his generator (which apparently powers his television). Recently, he even has put up a mail box on the road, though I don't know if he gets anything other than publicity flyers.

I love that you call him caravan man hehehe and yes we were planning on using a generator. Simply because it would be a nightmare (and financial suicide) to get hooked up to the national grid. Local water and sewer system? The jammy devil! We had looked at alternative options for that to be honest because I think that lies on the rather obvious side of illegality.

But, I am not at all certain of the legality of his living arrangements. He has located the caravan and assorted structural stuff at the far end of his lot - away from the main road where it can't be easily seen. It surprises me that there aren't local laws that would dictate some minimum standards for habitability, even of a portable abode like a caravan - at least as far as sanitation goes (which may explain his water and sewer hook up).

Maybe...I'm convinced his 'hookup' isn't all together legal to be honest. As far as the caravan goes, anyone can live in a caravan-providing he's on his own land or if he's renting then his landlord agrees. I'm honestly starting to consider this option myself. It seems a lot easier...

If you're serious about doing something like this, I would check carefully the cadastre and POS for any piece of agricultural land, then be very very sure to befriend your farmer neighbors - or any people living nearby in "normal" type houses. If you piss any of them off, or they just don't like having "foreigners" around, they could denounce you to the officials. If they like you, they will probably give you ideas for how to keep your abode just this side of legal, since they all seem to be experts in the process. But be careful, because a change in the mayor or town council could mark a change in enforcement policies.

Seems like sound advice! Not too sure what the cadastre and POS are though To be honest, I'm about ready to pull my hair out. You wouldn't think it'd be so bloody hard to make something that will essentially cause no problems to anyone. Granted, someone might not like the look of it but I'm gonna be out of the way and no one else has to live in it! Oh I don't know maybe I'll have to consider some other country because it would appear there aren't any definitive guidelines that depict what I can or cannot do. Moreover, there seems to be a great risk of buying land and having my permissions refused...

Tell you what, I've got a big unused caravan on my land, and some unused fields, water supply from a spring, going free to someone who can maintain the land and generally look after things!

[Bevdeforges]

When you say mobile structures, what sort of hings have you seen farmers do? Just simply caravans or anything else?

Basically, caravans. Another neighbor got around the "no building" rule by using an old caravan as a shelter for his pony. He took the wheels off and put the thing up on blocks to make it a bit more stable for the additional weight. (It's a fat pony.) Odd sidebar: If you have animals quartered on agricultural land, you're supposed to be able to get around the prohibition on building anything if you are building a (required) shelter for the animals. However there is a brisk business in portable horse shelters that are very movable.

Local water and sewer system? The jammy devil! We had looked at alternative options for that to be honest because I think that lies on the rather obvious side of illegality.

I suspect you're right. It shouldn't be legal, but no one seems to bother him about it. I figure it's better than having him peeing and pooping in the woods like a bear. He has also fenced off his property, which you aren't supposed to do without consulting with the neighbors. (Anything to keep his sheep out of our garden!)

Not too sure what the cadastre and POS are though To be honest, I'm about ready to pull my hair out. You wouldn't think it'd be so bloody hard to make something that will essentially cause no problems to anyone.

The cadastre is the official registry of land in the town. Not just deeds to land, it includes detailed maps of how the parcels are distributed on the land. The POS is basically the plan for "zoning" except they don't call it "zoning" in France - which parcels can be built on, which are residential, which are commercial or agricultural or any other usage designations they have. It includes lots of detail, like what percentage of a parcel is buildable. You really have to go in to the mairie and ask about the restrictions on whatever parcel of land you're thinking about because some of the regulations are bizarre.

Check the local hunting regulations, too, since you don't want to put your caravan in the line of fire. (I suspect that may be one of the reasons they require any structure be "portable" - so they can make you get out of the way of the hunters, who carry tremendous political clout in France.)
Cheers,
Bev

[emmahaynes]

Originally Posted by frogblogger

Tell you what, I've got a big unused caravan on my land, and some unused fields, water supply from a spring, going free to someone who can maintain the land and generally look after things!

Are you kidding? Seriously? That would be immense...unless you are kidding-then sorry (I'm a little gullible)

Well partly serious! The legalities are a minefield though, in France. Have sent you a PM ...

Your ideas are fashionably cute, but full of holes.

<<<Ok guys so we're setting about our dream of living simply. Yes we're those hippies that want to live green and eco friendly (yawn)>>

So this is why you used the internet to ask these questions, right? So that you can tell us how you are 'dropping out'?

<< 20 metres squared >>>

20 metres squared = four hundred square metres - which is quite a sizable house; maybe you mean 20 square metres, which is a small caravan - I'm being picky, but if you are going to take on the 800-pound gorilla that is called french bureaucracy you need to get your ducks in a row first.

<<<Also, I figure that placing a caravan on a piece of land doesn't require planning permission because it's a movable structure-is there some loophole that we could use to make our home under these guidelines?>>>

You won't be allowed to live in it for more than 6/12. Bevs neighbour is allowed to because he's French - you're not.

<<< We were considering shipping containers because they are in theory a movable structure.>>>

But they are not 'habitable, and unless you throw a lot of money at lining them out, they will be very damp, and far too cold.

<<< Basically we're looking for some way to purchase a piece of land and build some form of structure there that wont cause a problem with the local authorities.
It's not like we're building a real house, we're sticking mud together-lol.>>

Mud-houses are a reality here, its called pise, and to do it properly costs €1000/sqm. I happen to live in one - don't knock it.

<<<the likelihood of us finding land that has permission to build an eco home is slim to none.>>>

Rubbish. There is a farmer over the valley from us who has built a wooden house with an earth roof - local authorites MUST consider designs based on (yech spit) 'sustainable' notions.

<<<We really can't afford to buy land and apply for permission on the off chance that permission is refused and we have land that we can't do anything with.>>>

So look for 'terrain viabilise', it's everywhere. You fall over it here, and so long as what you propose isn't too outlandish, you'd get your PP>

<<<We know it can be done because people all over the world have done it and specifically it's been done in Brittany.>>>

That doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean you'll get to do it.

<<<The thing with building in France is that the climate would be perfect for growing a variety of crops >>

You want to be Tom and Barbara? Think again, you'd need an awful lot of land to be truly self-sufficient, and you won't find markets for small-scale produce readily.

<<< You have to wait for "approval" of the declaration before you can begin building.>>>

...oh, and don't forget, if anyone complains within two years of it being finished, you have the pleasure of dismantling it. Or they have the pleasure of watching you dismantle it.....

<<< We just want something simple that we can make without being bugged by the authorities. >>>

Hippies have always thought that life is about live and let live, and let someone else clear up the mess afterwards; the reality is that most re-enter mainstream society when starvation or winter sets in.

Oh, and as for generators? Where are you going to store your batteries? Be aware that most of rural France is fairly religious about the noise pollution thing, so you'd only be able to recharge your bank between 1000-1200 on Sundays, and not at all after 1800 on any day of the week. NB this rule, too, does not apply to teh French.....

<<< Oh I don't know maybe I'll have to consider some other country >>>

I hear Wales is Hippy Heaven these days......

Oh, and yes, this IS a negative posting - the last thing any community needs is the arrival of ill-prepared starry-eyed foreigners who make a great show of eschewing society, and then run bleating to use its services the first time a broken leg, collapsed roof or burning generator gets in teh way of their dream.

[emmahaynes]

Originally Posted by minesthechevy

Your ideas are fashionably cute, but full of holes.

I honestly thought my presence here would indicate that I needed help, obviously not.

So this is why you used the internet to ask these questions, right? So that you can tell us how you are 'dropping out'?

For a start...I have no idea what you mean by 'dropping out'. Secondly, the internet isn't the issue...it's the power used to facilitate it that is...

20 metres squared = four hundred square metres - which is quite a sizable house; maybe you mean 20 square metres, which is a small caravan - I'm being picky, but if you are going to take on the 800-pound gorilla that is called french bureaucracy you need to get your ducks in a row first.

Damnit, you picked up on the fact that maths was never my strong point...whatever shall I do???

You won't be allowed to live in it for more than 6/12. Bevs neighbour is allowed to because he's French - you're not.

With all due respect...it was a suggestion

But they are not 'habitable, and unless you throw a lot of money at lining them out, they will be very damp, and far too cold.

This is where I have to laugh, loudly. Have you not seen the fantastically constructed homes which have been made from shipping containers? It's amazing what you can put your mind to when you actually try to be constructive.

Mud-houses are a reality here, its called pise, and to do it properly costs €1000/sqm. I happen to live in one - don't knock it.

I wasn't knocking anything, in actual fact we were favouring cob or earthbags as a viable suggestion.

Rubbish. There is a farmer over the valley from us who has built a wooden house with an earth roof - local authorites MUST consider designs based on (yech spit) 'sustainable' notions.

Fantastic, didn't say it was impossible but then I know nothing of French red tape (as you keep pointing out)

So look for 'terrain viabilise', it's everywhere. You fall over it here, and so long as what you propose isn't too outlandish, you'd get your PP>

Once again...if I know nothing about French red tape, you can't then assume that I know what 'terrain viabilise' is. You can't have your cake and eat it.

That doesn't make it right, and it doesn't mean you'll get to do it.

What? It's not right to build an eco friendly house? Because that's the only statement I was making...

You want to be Tom and Barbara? Think again, you'd need an awful lot of land to be truly self-sufficient, and you won't find markets for small-scale produce readily.

Forgive my ignorance...but who the heck are Tom and barbara??? No, I want to grow vegetables for my family, similarly to the way we did as kids on my fathers allotment. You'll be amazed by just how much you can grow in a small space.

...oh, and don't forget, if anyone complains within two years of it being finished, you have the pleasure of dismantling it. Or they have the pleasure of watching you dismantle it.....

Or I could just not make it so unsightly that people would complain...

Hippies have always thought that life is about live and let live, and let someone else clear up the mess afterwards; the reality is that most re-enter mainstream society when starvation or winter sets in.

I didn't say I was a hippy...I said we wanted what some might consider a hippy lifestyle (granted that is paraphrased.) I dislike your tendency to tar all 'hippes' with the same brush. You assume that I know nothing about what I'm doing because I'm unfamiliar with the bureaucracy of one country. That in its self is bigoted and stereotypical. If you'd bothered to get to know me at all before casting aspersions you'd have figured out that I'm actually a pagan and wouldn't want to cause harm or annoyance to anyone.

Oh, and as for generators? Where are you going to store your batteries? Be aware that most of rural France is fairly religious about the noise pollution thing, so you'd only be able to recharge your bank between 1000-1200 on Sundays, and not at all after 1800 on any day of the week. NB this rule, too, does not apply to teh French.....

With that statement I'm going to politely assume that you don't know very much about generators and we'll leave it at that to prevent any further embarrassment on your behalf.

I hear Wales is Hippy Heaven these days......

Yet another stereotypical comment...why am I surprised? I'm actually from the UK and have no plans of returning. I currently live in Spain and whoa I've managed to live here for a whole year without annoying anyone or starving. Isn't that something?

Oh, and yes, this IS a negative posting

I'm retarded now too, great.

- the last thing any community needs is the arrival of ill-prepared starry-eyed foreigners who make a great show of eschewing society, and then run bleating to use its services the first time a broken leg, collapsed roof or burning generator gets in teh way of their dream.

I'll prepared? Am I in France RIGHT NOW? No. I'm in Spain, in my apartment finding out all the information I need before I take the plunge. I don't think asking for advice is irresponsible do you?

Yes, yes, I'm right in line to eschew society...wtf? Are you insane?
Surprisingly enough, I've managed in Spain without the resources of my home country...I think I'll be fine-but thanks for you concern!

Ps...burning generator? Is everything so pessimistic in your 1000 euro psm home?

...Just curios...hey! Maybe you just had a bad month and decided to rant at someone you know nothing about because...well-fill in the blanks little miss prim because I truly have no idea. Back off hippy hater! Jeez, there should be a word for people like you...oh wait-there's several!

[<<<Have you not seen the fantastically constructed homes which have been made from shipping containers? >>>

Yes, many, and the the first one I re-discovered tonight is $99K. That's a nice lump of folding stuff for a reworked 20-foot metal box.

<<<It's amazing what you can put your mind to when you actually try to be constructive.>>>

Hmm, yes it is - given the state of this house when we arrived, it's certainly amazing...

<<<<What? It's not right to build an eco friendly house?>>>>

Not if it's so out of place you are actually considering hiding it as a way of avoiding complaints...

<<< Forgive my ignorance...but who the heck are Tom and barbara??? >>>

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