Planning permission-any ideas?

[emmahaynes]

Originally Posted by minesthechevy

Yes, many, and the the first one I re-discovered tonight is $99K. That's a nice lump of folding stuff for a reworked 20-foot metal box.

With all due respect, my husband could fabricate most things with his eyes shut. Besides, he's had a great deal of experience with many unconventional builds, hence the aspiration. 800-1000 euros per shipping container isn't as much to shell out when you get off your backside and do the work yourself.

Hmm, yes it is - given the state of this house when we arrived, it's certainly amazing...

So you know it can be done...I'm struggling to see your point.

Not if it's so out of place you are actually considering hiding it as a way of avoiding complaints...

No, there are plenty of people that do it this way, as I have three children to consider I'd like to follow all guidelines where necessary so we can avoid being evicted and subsequently becoming homeless.

Google 'The Good Life'

I know who you mean now.

See, the thing is that you don't know anything about me yet you've chose to assume I'm an egit. Well I'm not. Maybe you should reconsider the way you talk to people you don't even know.

I think I have a fair point considering you haven't addressed many of the points I replied with. I'm asking for advice, that's all. I appreciate your scepticism but you need to understand that just because I describe my choice of lifestyle as a tad 'hippyish' doesn't mean I'm going to let Glastonbury descend on a field near you...

[frogblogger]

MTC makes some fair points in his usual inimitable fashion, but hats off to anyone that at least thinks outside the box, container or whatever. However - this isn't the room, or even the mud hut for an argument, five minute version or the full half hour*.

Another point to consider Emma; with three children you are going to be particularly visible. I know home schooling is possible, but you have to register each year with the local mairie and the regional school inspectorate. Plus there are annual inspections for anyone teaching children aged between 6 and 16. Not sure if that would go down too well with the authorities, if one was living in a caravan on agricultural land...!

*(First 'The Good Life', and now Monty P's Argument Sketch... apologies to anyone under 50 )

[Bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by minesthechevy

You won't be allowed to live in it for more than 6/12. Bevs neighbour is allowed to because he's French - you're not.

I knew there was a reason Caravan Man was getting away with it all! Good point.

Oh, and as for generators? Where are you going to store your batteries? Be aware that most of rural France is fairly religious about the noise pollution thing, so you'd only be able to recharge your bank between 1000-1200 on Sundays, and not at all after 1800 on any day of the week. NB this rule, too, does not apply to teh French.....

Oh, and yes, this IS a negative posting - the last thing any community needs is the arrival of ill-prepared starry-eyed foreigners who make a great show of eschewing society, and then run bleating to use its services the first time a broken leg, collapsed roof or burning generator gets in teh way of their dream.

Oddly enough, Caravan Man did have a generator fire last winter (as well as a very noisy generator that he ran all night!). I was all for calling out the pompiers, as he lives at the edge of a wooded area that could easily have gone up in flames - and that would have dashed his plans of continuing to live there.

I admit to having had a little bit of fun at your expense in mentioning Caravan Man. He's kind of tolerated (though just barely) in our neighborhood, in large part because he's part of a family that goes back generations here and he's considered kind of the "not so bright" one who just was looking to get out from living with his mother (he's in his 50's or 60's).

If you've got kids, I'm afraid your plan is probably undo-able in France. As Frogblogger mentioned, homeschooling is dependent on regular check-ins with the educational establishment - and living in illegal habitation like that will flag all sorts of problems for you. The neighbors may or may not be willing to leave someone they consider a "crazy foreigner" alone to their bizarre ways, but if there are children involved, most French people I know will kick up a fuss at what they see as "unsafe" conditions.

There is also considerable heartfelt concern in France over the "urbanization" of land. Even in our small town, changes to the POS (the plan for land use - the initials change every 10 or 12 years) are scrutinized and discussed to assure that sufficient land is designated as "unbuildable" so as to preserve the character of the countryside.

Your best bet would be buy a piece of buildable land, and then build your eco or sustainable house on it according to the rules in place. It may take a bit of haggling with the local planning authorities, especially if you're doing something out of the ordinary, but that's part of the game in France and until you learn how to play it, life here can be a living hell.
Cheers,
Bev

[emmahaynes]

Your best bet would be buy a piece of buildable land, and then build your eco or sustainable house on it according to the rules in place. It may take a bit of haggling with the local planning authorities, especially if you're doing something out of the ordinary, but that's part of the game in France and until you learn how to play it, life here can be a living hell.

Thia is what we want to do Bev, it's what we always wanted to do. The problem is we can't seem to find any substantiating evidence to suggest that purchasing land and then applying for planning permission would work. On the other hand, we managed to find some relatively cheap building land that would just require a change in permissions I believe? I was under the impression that building land was in the same price range as in the UK (unbelievably expensive)
It's not at all and I wasn't aware.

To be honest, I came here to ask for help. I didn't come here with the intentions of doing it all illegally anyway. If I did, I wouldn't have come here.

I already know about the regulations surrounding homeschooling which is why we're scouting around trying to find the best info we can get.

I was searching for a possible 'loophole' but if one doesn't exist then we shall just have to go about it the long way.

The thing that frightens me about that is that 'long' and 'lengthy' processes to do with building quickly become costly affairs.

We don't have a lot of money, the idea with this is partially to do with the fact that it is affordable housing.

I do find it quite unhelpful that there are certain comments which have been made. I'm not in here to ignore everything you all say and live in cloud cuckoo land. I'm looking for a solution to our problem and I honestly thought that people with a little bit of French know how would want to help point me in the right direction.

As it's turned out, I've ended up feeling embarrassed by the way that we want to live our lives. I cannot stress the point any more that with three children to think about I want to do this the most legitimate way possible.

On another note, if anyone is willing to take me seriously (please take me seriously) I'm really not some idiot hippy with her head in the clouds. As a family we've had some real problems in the past and we just need to take a step back from everything, that's all. Believe me when I say we'd go out and just buy one of these things if we could, but we can't.

Caravan man sounds like he's doing things entirely the wrong way, if he's French and wants to risk a brush with the law in his own country then that's his own problem. I don't intend to live illegally.

Anyway back to my 'another note'. Is it the case that it will just require a change in permissions? Providing the land is already buildable? I figure my best bet is to approach a French estate agent and ask them what they recommend (if I tell them the circumstances.)

I make the mistake of comparing most countries with how things work in the UK, an old habit i should try to lose really. The fact is you can live in a caravan in the UK...that's obviously not the case in France and I wasn't aware. That's why I enquired about the 'movable' structures. (it's he same principle in the UK)

We've seen some 'eco camp' type things with communities of people who share the workload and schooling etc, they do seem nice in theory but I'm not sure they'd be great in practise.

I guess if you all new the circumstances surrounding our choice you'd probably understand a little more but as you don't I guess I'll just have to take it on the chin.

Thanks (I think) for some helpful information, but I must say that no matter how old you get having people take the mickey isn't nice. I'm sure you'd understand if it was the other way around.

[Bevdeforges]

Emma,
Sorry if you took some of our "fun and games" the wrong way. I'm sure there's more to your decisions than you care to discuss here on the forum - and I'm sure you'll understand that there is lots more to my concern about Caravan Man and his lifestyle which doesn't really bear airing here, either.

France is a country of little boxes. Either you fit into one of the little boxes or you don't. There are ways to maneuver if you're set on a space of your own, but it takes living here a while to figure out how to do things your own way.

In your situation, I wouldn't talk to the estate agents. They're firmly fixed on making the sale, collecting their fee and then getting out of there quickly - and they are known for saying what they think you want to hear. You really need to go in and talk to the mairies (town halls) about your plans for any particular piece of land. You can confirm if the parcel is buildable, if it has access to utilities or not and what specific restrictions there are on the parcel.

Some towns and some mayors will be more open to original or offbeat construction plans than others. Ultimately, it's the prefecture that decides whether your plans meet the local regulations - but without backing from the town level, you don't have a chance.

And its true that the approval process, construction and then the "running costs" of whatever you decide to do can get pretty expensive pretty quick. That's another factor to consider - the ongoing taxes on a residence. While you'll save mightily on not installing indoor plumbing or central heat or whatever (each "luxury" item adds square meters to the base used to calculate the "rental value" which then drives the tax rate calculation), the mairie is also taking these things into consideration when deciding whether or not to approve the plans.

You mention that you tend to assume that things elsewhere are like they are in the UK. I've discussed that with some friends of mine here in France (all expats) and we're agreed that anglophones (Brits, Americans and other English speaking types) tend to avoid dealing with the town hall like the plague. Here in France, people run to the mairie for just about anything - including (in our town recently) when there are "too many" flies, when you get a weasel in your attic (my Brit friend) and for anything concerning the schools, children or the elderly.
Cheers,
Bev

[emmahaynes]

You mention that you tend to assume that things elsewhere are like they are in the UK. I've discussed that with some friends of mine here in France (all expats) and we're agreed that anglophones (Brits, Americans and other English speaking types) tend to avoid dealing with the town hall like the plague. Here in France, people run to the mairie for just about anything - including (in our town recently) when there are "too many" flies, when you get a weasel in your attic (my Brit friend) and for anything concerning the schools, children or the elderly.

I believe that's the case in most places. Here in Spain if you want to live out the rest of the day you avoid the Ayuntamiento like the plague. Spanish bureaucracy is notoriously painstaking and as such the Brits here tend to stay out of their way.

Particularly if they don't speak Spanish. Oddly enough I speak more French than Spanish.

In most cases when you move to Spain it can take up to 3 months before you can get a resident bank account, pay into the social security system or anything. Leaving most to rely on their EHIC cards for health care.

Some could argue that if I want to live the prehistoric lifestyle I really don't have to move...

I will attempt t contact the Mairie when we decide on a place. I think it may be safe to try somewhere that has already seen alternative structures, on the other hand they might be of the opinion that one is more than enough...who knows-I can but try.

I think that the fact that there are still many cob built structures still standing today may go in my favour. That was my preferred method of constructoin where possible.

I was thinking about something that might get a little more complex though, but again I'm comparing it to British legislation. When you apply for planning permission and it's granted, it then becomes residential land instead of agricultural land, meaning you can't keep animals there. So maybe I'll need to find somewhere with permission for a smallholding? Oh I don't know.

See, I don't mind when it's a laugh and a joke but this stuff is a real mind bender, that's why I'm a little cranky. I'm sure you have your own opinions on caravan man and let me clarify that I don't want to cause the same grief. The whole process is daunting enough without adding "p*ssing off the neighbours" to the equation.

I think people envisage something similar to an allotment shed when they hear my plans It's not at all like that but then the proof is in the pudding and I'm ok with that. Talk about pressure though

I think as you say the Mairie will be the best bet. Time to dust off the French skills

[Bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by emmahaynes

I was thinking about something that might get a little more complex though, but again I'm comparing it to British legislation. When you apply for planning permission and it's granted, it then becomes residential land instead of agricultural land, meaning you can't keep animals there. So maybe I'll need to find somewhere with permission for a smallholding? Oh I don't know.

I may have left a slightly faulty impression. You don't apply to change the designation of a property in France. The land is either agricultural or it's buildable (or one of a couple other categories). This is pretty much fixed (other than a couple exceptions for which you have to be a dues-paying farmer) until the town does a complete re-evaluation of the land use within the town - which happens every 20 years or so. This is why you need to talk to the mairie about any piece of land you're thinking about buying - before you buy it.

If you buy a piece of agricultural land, you cannot build anything on it. Period. You would need to buy a piece of land that is at least buildable, then negotiate with the mairie/prefecture what sort of structure you want to put there. You get a permit for the building itself, not for the piece of land.

To get a building permit, you need architectural drawings, but you can do these yourself (as our next door neighbors did when they built an addition onto their house). It is sometimes possible to negotiate "derogations" (legal exceptions) to some of the requirements - like the height or surface area of the building - but for these it really helps to be friendly with the folks in the mairie.

But the good news is that there aren't nearly the kinds of restrictions on what sorts of animals you have have on residential land that you get in the "anglo-saxon" countries. We've got donkeys. Caravan Man has sheep and geese (and used to have a goat). Some folks in the center of our little town used to have goats, and there are a number of people who keep chickens on their property. It doesn't seem to be a big deal.
Cheers,
Bev

[emmahaynes]

Originally Posted by Bevdeforges

I may have left a slightly faulty impression. You don't apply to change the designation of a property in France. The land is either agricultural or it's buildable (or one of a couple other categories). This is pretty much fixed (other than a couple exceptions for which you have to be a dues-paying farmer) until the town does a complete re-evaluation of the land use within the town - which happens every 20 years or so. This is why you need to talk to the mairie about any piece of land you're thinking about buying - before you buy it.

If you buy a piece of agricultural land, you cannot build anything on it. Period. You would need to buy a piece of land that is at least buildable, then negotiate with the mairie/prefecture what sort of structure you want to put there. You get a permit for the building itself, not for the piece of land.

To get a building permit, you need architectural drawings, but you can do these yourself (as our next door neighbors did when they built an addition onto their house). It is sometimes possible to negotiate "derogations" (legal exceptions) to some of the requirements - like the height or surface area of the building - but for these it really helps to be friendly with the folks in the mairie.

But the good news is that there aren't nearly the kinds of restrictions on what sorts of animals you have have on residential land that you get in the "anglo-saxon" countries. We've got donkeys. Caravan Man has sheep and geese (and used to have a goat). Some folks in the center of our little town used to have goats, and there are a number of people who keep chickens on their property. It doesn't seem to be a big deal.
Cheers,
Bev

That makes things simpler!

Thanks

[minesthechevy]

<< To get a building permit, you need architectural drawings, but you can do these yourself (as our next door neighbors did when they built an addition onto their house) >>

Only if the total surface area is less than 150 m2. I know this because we were going to convert one of the outbuildings at one point and we just scraped in at 144m2.

Otherwise, you need an architect.

[Bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by minesthechevy

<< To get a building permit, you need architectural drawings, but you can do these yourself (as our next door neighbors did when they built an addition onto their house) >>

Only if the total surface area is less than 150 m2. I know this because we were going to convert one of the outbuildings at one point and we just scraped in at 144m2.

Otherwise, you need an architect.

Oh dear - this just shows how my standards have changed since living here. 150 m2 sounds like a mansion to me these days!
Cheers,
Bev