Help! Information meltdown re long-stay visa for France

[Tanja]

hello there

I'm an Australian woman living in France with my French partner for the past two years. Because of my 90 day tourist visa restriction, we have left France on several occasions for months at a time ...until now.

We've both been terribly silly and naughty for not doing our research before we left Australia 2 years ago (that's where we met).
My partner has always been under the impression that things are very relaxed about French citizens bringing their partners etc. How wrong could he be...

So, I'll try to be brief...
In order for me to stay here in peace... we wanted to get married, but discovered we cant because my partner doesn't have a Tax file number as he works overseas... mostly the middle east and hasn't paid taxes for years. So that's out.

Next PACS...
filled out all the relevant papers. We have an appointment on November 27th..which woud make me around 3 months over my used by date
If we do end up PACSing, I am told I still need to fly to Australia to apply for my long-stay visa...and they want to see how much money I have etc to prove that I can support myself. Sounds to me that the PACS is a bit of a waste of time and doesn't really count for that much??? Am I wrong?

Next plan is a lot more expensive but we're running out of options.
Fly to Australia together, get married (I think it's a lot easier there), apply for my 'spousal visa' etc and take it from there.

Has anybody experienced the marriage in France verses marriage in their own country confusion?

I have read somewhere that there is a loophole allowing you to stay without the long-term visa if you can prove you've lived together in France for over 6 months (illegally?) Is that true? (clutching at straws here)

Also if we end up getting married in Australia, we need a 'livret de famille' which is 'an extract copy of family registry' to apply for my long-term visa. But do they mean? His or mine? I've never heard of it in Australia before? How do we get it???

I know this is a bit long-winded and I hope i haven't confused you, but I would be ever so grateful if someone could enlighten me. I have done nothing but research and read for the past few weeks....and the information is always conflicting.
Many thanks in advance.

[Joppa]

Originally Posted by Tanja

I have read somewhere that there is a loophole allowing you to stay without the long-term visa if you can prove you've lived together in France for over 6 months (illegally?) Is that true? (clutching at straws here)

I let expert on France answer your other questions, but as far as this is concerned, it doesn't work. You and your partner/spouse have to live in another EU country other than France for 6 months, and your French partner has to be working or in self-employment there, before you can apply to live in France under EU regulations. Some EU countries don't recognise unmarried partnership, in which case you must be married to each other.

[Snodge]

Originally Posted by Tanja

... we need a 'livret de famille' which is 'an extract copy of family registry' to apply for my long-term visa. But do they mean? His or mine? I've never heard of it in Australia before? How do we get it???

I don't have a clue about most of your questions, and besides Bev will soon chime in and give you more help than I could, but the Livret de Famille is a document from the French Government that you apply for once you've been married. Not sure how it works if you get married in France but here in the states you send in your marriage certificate with the application and (for us) in about 3-4 months you get a little book in the mail. The book has your and your spouse's vital info and there's pages for all future family members.

Good Luck!

[Tanja]

Originally Posted by Joppa

I let expert on France answer your other questions, but as far as this is concerned, it doesn't work. You and your partner/spouse have to live in another EU country other than France for 6 months, and your French partner has to be working or in self-employment there, before you can apply to live in France under EU regulations. Some EU countries don't recognise unmarried partnership, in which case you must be married to each other.

yes, that seems unlikely. I thought so. Thanks so much for your reply. I really appreciate it.

[Tanja]

Originally Posted by Snodge

I don't have a clue about most of your questions, and besides Bev will soon chime in and give you more help than I could, but the Livret de Famille is a document from the French Government that you apply for once you've been married. Not sure how it works if you get married in France but here in the states you send in your marriage certificate with the application and (for us) in about 3-4 months you get a little book in the mail. The book has your and your spouse's vital info and there's pages for all future family members.

Good Luck!

my goodness. That means if we get married in Australia and then send away for the Livret de Famille, I have to wait in Australia for 3-4 months to receive it before I can apply for the long-term visa???
Mon Dieu...the soup just got a lot thicker.
Thanks so much for your reply. I do appreciate it.

[Snodge]

Well there might be a way to get it faster if you go to the consulate in person?


We did it by mail and I'm not totally sure how long it took but I know it was multiple months.

sorry to be giving bad news...


From what I heard the reason it took so long was that it had to go back and forth from San Francisco to France via diplomatic channels and that takes a long time. Perhaps you could get married in Australia then go to France on another visitor visa and apply for livret there and get it quicker?

[Tanja]

Originally Posted by Snodge

Well there might be a way to get it faster if you go to the consulate in person?


We did it by mail and I'm not totally sure how long it took but I know it was multiple months.

sorry to be giving bad news...


From what I heard the reason it took so long was that it had to go back and forth from San Francisco to France via diplomatic channels and that takes a long time. Perhaps you could get married in Australia then go to France on another visitor visa and apply for livret there and get it quicker?

But then it's back again to Australia to apply for the lon-stay visa! It's a never ending cycle. Someone should write a book about it. A black comedy.
Thanks again for your help.

[Bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by Tanja

But then it's back again to Australia to apply for the lon-stay visa! It's a never ending cycle. Someone should write a book about it. A black comedy.
Thanks again for your help.

I'm working on it! (The book, that is...) My first few years here in France were a real nightmare. And you're exactly right - most French nationals "just assume" they can bring their spouse or companion back to live in France with them. Ain't so.

we wanted to get married, but discovered we cant because my partner doesn't have a Tax file number as he works overseas... mostly the middle east and hasn't paid taxes for years. So that's out.

This is the one I don't understand. To get married in France, you need to be resident in France, and then you must marry at the mairie (i.e. town hall) of the town in which one of you is resident. (Legally resident, that is... sorry.) But DH (my now dear husband) was never asked about any sort of tax file number. He needs to be able to "prove" where he is resident (usually utility bills, etc) but not that his taxes are paid. I suspect the issue is that your partner isn't considered resident in France (say, if he spends 183 days + in a year working elsewhere).

The trick these days is that, to get married in France to a French resident, you (as the foreigner) need to have a long stay visa issued in your country of residence. (Wasn't the case when I did the deed.)

Next PACS...
filled out all the relevant papers. We have an appointment on November 27th..which woud make me around 3 months over my used by date
If we do end up PACSing, I am told I still need to fly to Australia to apply for my long-stay visa...and they want to see how much money I have etc to prove that I can support myself. Sounds to me that the PACS is a bit of a waste of time and doesn't really count for that much??? Am I wrong?

Honestly, there isn't that much difference between getting PACS'd and getting married these days - at least not for a heterosexual couple. (Getting married in France takes a least a month or so of gathering documents and preparing your file.) Where is this appointment you have on the 27th November?

You can get PACS'd (or so I'm told) at a French consulate outside France as long as one of you is a French citizen and can prove it. But to go to France afterwards, you still need the long stay visa, so you're kind of back to square one again.

Fly to Australia together, get married (I think it's a lot easier there), apply for my 'spousal visa' etc and take it from there.

Honestly, that's going to be the easiest way (although definitely not the cheapest), provided Australia doesn't have some maze of documents and procedures to put you through. You will need to get a "livret de famille" but that's an almost automatic long-stay visa for you once you have that.

You get the livret de famille at the French consulate - usually they ask you to submit some sort of certified copy of your marriage certificate from wherever you got married. This is the thing that can take time to get, as it's kind of a weird request in many countries. Check with the French consulate in Australia to see what sort of certification they require.

I have read somewhere that there is a loophole allowing you to stay without the long-term visa if you can prove you've lived together in France for over 6 months (illegally?) Is that true? (clutching at straws here)

It's the "illegally" part that'll trip you up. If you've LEGALLY been living together six months (may now be a year, but I'm not sure - the rules keep changing) - say, you were in France on a student visa or working there legally - they won't make you go back home to get the long-stay visa in order to get married or PACS'd.
Cheers,
Bev

[Tanja]

Originally Posted by Bevdeforges

I'm working on it! (The book, that is...) My first few years here in France were a real nightmare. And you're exactly right - most French nationals "just assume" they can bring their spouse or companion back to live in France with them. Ain't so.



This is the one I don't understand. To get married in France, you need to be resident in France, and then you must marry at the mairie (i.e. town hall) of the town in which one of you is resident. (Legally resident, that is... sorry.) But DH (my now dear husband) was never asked about any sort of tax file number. He needs to be able to "prove" where he is resident (usually utility bills, etc) but not that his taxes are paid. I suspect the issue is that your partner isn't considered resident in France (say, if he spends 183 days + in a year working elsewhere).

The trick these days is that, to get married in France to a French resident, you (as the foreigner) need to have a long stay visa issued in your country of residence. (Wasn't the case when I did the deed.)



Honestly, there isn't that much difference between getting PACS'd and getting married these days - at least not for a heterosexual couple. (Getting married in France takes a least a month or so of gathering documents and preparing your file.) Where is this appointment you have on the 27th November?

You can get PACS'd (or so I'm told) at a French consulate outside France as long as one of you is a French citizen and can prove it. But to go to France afterwards, you still need the long stay visa, so you're kind of back to square one again.



Honestly, that's going to be the easiest way (although definitely not the cheapest), provided Australia doesn't have some maze of documents and procedures to put you through. You will need to get a "livret de famille" but that's an almost automatic long-stay visa for you once you have that.

You get the livret de famille at the French consulate - usually they ask you to submit some sort of certified copy of your marriage certificate from wherever you got married. This is the thing that can take time to get, as it's kind of a weird request in many countries. Check with the French consulate in Australia to see what sort of certification they require.



It's the "illegally" part that'll trip you up. If you've LEGALLY been living together six months (may now be a year, but I'm not sure - the rules keep changing) - say, you were in France on a student visa or working there legally - they won't make you go back home to get the long-stay visa in order to get married or PACS'd.
Cheers,
Bev

Dearest Bev
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. It's so nice that there are people out there who actually care. Let me know when you finish your book, because I'll be the first one to buy it.

I guess we have been living together legally...during the times I have been allowed to stay on my tourist visa....the 90 days....on and off for over a year now.
The phone bill is even in my name.
So not sure about that one. That remains a mystery.

As far as the appointment on the 27th of Nov; That's at the Tribunal D'Instance De Marseille. It's the day we need to bring in our papers etc.
But honestly, I'm not sure we'll go through with that one.
If we PACS it means I have to go back (have to go back to Australia either way) and prove that I can support myself for one year...and I just don't have the 20 000 euro they're asking. Also I read that you can't apply for a spouse visa if you're PACSed...
so then I'm not sure I'm allowed to work the first year or not? Probably not if I have to show them how much money I have.

Whereas if we're married I'm pretty sure I can.
Hence, I feel the best and easiest way is to get married either here or Australia and then go back to apply for the long-term visa once I have the livret de famille.
My only concern is that by the time all of that is organized - perhaps in another month or two, I would have long overstayed my welcome here, and I don't want to get into any trouble or possible jeopardize my application.
Not sure if I can organize it all from here if I'm not even supposed to be here? Do they even care? Do they want to see the long-term visa before they marry us?
I'm not sure anyone can answer that?
Thanks so much for your support.
Cheers
Tanja

[Bevdeforges]

The 90 days on and off isn't going to add up to the 6 months or a year you need. It's intended to be a full year (or whatever) on a long stay visa.

If you're willing to PACS, you should probably be willing to get married. The differences are negligible. And it's bound to be easier in Australia than in France.

But the big question is, where is he resident at the moment? If he's working outside France and not paying taxes, chances are he isn't resident in France. And that's the big thing working against you. He can take you to live in France with him. But if he's not resident there, your being there full time will establish his residence if you're married. Under French law, married partners share the same residence more or less by definition, and his earnings from the Middle East (I'm assuming someplace like Dubai that doesn't have income taxes) will become taxable in France if you're living there as his wife.
Cheers,
Bev