culture shock

[xveruskax]

Hello, to all of those who are fortunate to have made France their second home, I wanted to know what your experience has been as far as cultural differences. Have there been events or situations that really struck you as odd, mainly because you came with a different set of values?

Thanks in advance for your sharing.

[Bevdeforges]

Oh most definitely! And despite popular opinion, being married to a French national doesn't really give you an edge on these sorts of situations, because DH doesn't see the "disconnect" in any of these situations, and can't explain them to me even if I ask him about them.

The classic one was when I asked him whether I should use "tu" or "vous" with his mother. He said he didn't know. Then I asked him which he used with her. Again, he didn't know. So I made a point of listening to hear how he addressed her, and found that he cleverly avoided using any form of second person - said things like "how is my mother doing today?" or "what would my mother like?" So I just wound up avoiding addressing her directly - though I was extremely fond of her.

The use of "tu" and "vous" is always tricky, because it can be used to belittle someone or to cut them dead if they are getting too chummy, and people not used to dealing with us foreigners often don't think that maybe we're just making a simple mistake.

Then there is the institution of the French dinner event - can be a wedding or large birthday dinner. Rather than doing it in the sequence we "anglo-saxons" might be expecting, they stretch out the courses with games, dancing or speeches between the courses rather than after dinner, or with the dessert or coffee. Most big party type dinners wind up lasting until after midnight, with dessert not being served until just before or just after midnight and coffee after that.

I used to think it was just my husband's family, but it seems to be the formula for most big dinner events (at least in the area where we live). A Parisien friend of mine told me that it's considered rude to attempt to leave before midnight - or before the final course has been served. (Not convenient for those of us used to retiring early - or who don't like to try to sleep on a full stomach.)
Cheers,
Bev

[Donnachaidh]

It took me a while to realise that in France lunch time means from around 12 'til 3.

And it also means everything stops! Not so much in big cities, but in most towns (especially in the South) shops close, parking (in metered bays) becomes free, and in villages the noise level drops to almost silence. Restaurants, however, are open.

Sunday - almost dead. Depending where you are you might find a small supermarket open, but don't depend on it. Again, especially in the South, all the large stores are closed on Sunday.

I'm told that certain tourist resorts have stores open on Sunday, but I've always avoided tourist resorts.

[frogblogger]

Bev, I'm fascinated by your account of the tu/vous dilemma with respect to your parents-in-law. I have never heard, or heard of, a natural child of either gender, addressing one of his natural parents as 'vous', irrespective of age. I'm trying to recall if there isn't a class and/or period factor (from previous reading) that can affect this, but it seems unusual to me. Aside from royalty and the haute bourgeoisie, of course!

Distance (not physical, but in relationship terms) can affect how one addresses parents-in-law. It is more natural to start off with 'vous'. Sometimes closeness can bring you to feel that tu is more appropriate, and by way of example, I began to 'tutoyer' (and he me) my father-in-law after my first marriage very early on (I was in my early 20s, he was a laid-back, jazz piano-playing, opera singing, debonair guy who acted as if he was a teenager right through until his 80s). In a way, he would have felt awkward had I used 'vous' - it would have aged him. His daughter was in a serious road accident before we reached our first wedding anniversary, but 'tu' remained the preferred form of address whenever we spoke, until he died.

Second time around was different. Already in my 30s, 'vous' felt more comfortable; although my father-in-law and I instinctively knew we would have been ok with 'tu', his stand-offish wife wouldn't have liked it. Then following their daughter's unexpected death, after nearly 20 years, he and I suddenly began to 'tutoyer' each other; it was an empathy thing. MIL and I grew if anything even further apart, so 'vous' it remained; no chance of that ever changing.

Vous seems to me to be perfectly natural and acceptable in most parents-in-law situations, I can't imagine how it would be seen to be otherwise - it's a natural term of respect between parents-in-law and gendre/bru, until/unless parents-in-law suggest otherwise (it's more their place to do so, an age and respect thing).

All to describe how diffficult it is suggest some kind of definitive rule governing the 'tu'/'vous' issue, except in more straightforward cases (such as with vous in a child addressing an unrelated adult, or in subordinate business relationships, or when first being introduced to a stranger, etc).

Class and region are factors. Chatty paysan southerners are more likely to use tu than vous, early on, especially with their fellows. But it's more awkward with outsiders/foreigners where vous feels safer much of the time, at least before people get to know each other properly. Mountain folk, the montagnards, are harder to get close to, so vous is used more frequently. In cosmopolitan areas, the edges to these 'rules' become blurred.

Generation is another factor - peer groups of university students would sound very odd vousvoying each other, even shortly after they met for the first time. Then again, when the class factor is factored in, to add a little nose-in-the-air distance, amongst students of a certain background vous may be the standard form employed.

As for the use of tu/vous to indirectly express approval or disapproval, how very true. In a situation when you would normally use vous, suddenly switching to tu can be very insulting, depending on the tone of the conversation. Or if someone tries to be prematurely familiar with a 'tu', a deliberate 'vous' in reply can be quite a putdown.

I've sometimes heard foreigners using tu with abandon and clearly inappropriately, and after years of immersion it feels unnatural and even rude to me at times. Not so much when it's obvious that the foreigner has just arrived and barely speaks the language, but when he/she has been around for a while and can express him/herself clearly. It sounds insensitive, boorish, as if the foreigner hasn't taken the trouble to understand how it works.

So to those unfamiliar with this highly complicated situation, a rule of thumb is to always use 'vous', except when addressing children up to say at least mid teens, and until/unless invited otherwise.

[frogblogger]

Another point on the thread heading, 'culture shock'. Just personal opinion, but as a Brit I can think of no difference I would describe as culture shock. Sometimes I think there are more similarities between 'old Europe' nations, than between the UK and our Anglophone cousins across the Pond, despite the language differences.

Culture shock is definitely something I've felt when in Africa, or Asia... but it doesn't really start on this continent for me until I reach eastern European countries, or the likes of Turkey, etc.

[Bevdeforges]

I have heard of any number of families where the children address Mom and Dad as "vous" and especially where the husband and wife use "vous" with each other. (There is a marvelous French film about one evening in the life of a very bourgeois couple like this.) The Chiracs were rumored to be such a family.

It tends to be an old fashioned thing these days - it changed as those of our generation were growing up (which is, I suspect, why my husband and his sisters just kind of avoided the whole issue however they could).

Then, too, there is the whole issue of the new daughter or son in law just entering the family - and to some extent, there is a ritual progression you just have to go through, especially if there is some "special circumstance" involved (like a second marriage, which is an issue in some families, or a foreigner).

I can recall all the "culture shock" of having the American management visiting our plant (in Germany), where we addressed everyone in the plant as Herr This or Frau That. The Americans were very adamant about using not just first names all around, but nicknames. David became Dave, and Robert was Bob - and the Germans (as most Europeans) were just as shocked as can be.
Cheers,
Bev

[frogblogger]

I clearly don't mix in the right circles! Yes it's a generational/class thing, but one that has largely died out, except in a certain tiny echelon of society. But certainly in many years of bringing up children in France, and mixing with their friends and parents of all backgrounds, I'm pretty sure I've not heard a singular vous from child to parent - ever.

Come to think of it, I can't recall ever hearing husband and wife address each other as 'vous' either.

It's pretty standard (at least where a nanny isn't doing most of the child raising) for the mother and father to use tu to a baby/young child. Naturally, the child learns to respond in kind.

But as you suggest it would be a bourgeois thing (and even there I should think it is hardly common with younger generations). But if/where it still happens, it nonetheless represents only a very minute percentage of French families.

[LindyLoo]

Originally Posted by Donnachaidh

It took me a while to realise that in France lunch time means from around 12 'til 3.

Not to mention BeerO'Clock, which happens with French workman at 5.00pm everyday from May thru October........! The English caught on to that one quick!And I still don't know how many kisses I'm supposed to give or receive. I always get it wrong and find I'm backing away when somebody is diving for the next one, or worse, I'm going for another round with a fit young guy, and he's moved back. Ho hum.

[Coton90]

Originally Posted by xveruskax

Hello, to all of those who are fortunate to have made France their second home, I wanted to know what your experience has been as far as cultural differences. Have there been events or situations that really struck you as odd, mainly because you came with a different set of values?

Thanks in advance for your sharing.

There’s a big cultural difference I’ve noticed. These comments only apply to the Herault Department as I can’t speak for the rest of France.

There are a significant number of burglaries in this department. Virtually everyone we know here has been burglarized at least once if not several times. My in-laws house was broken into three times. The local paper, The Midi-Libre, reports an increase in larcenies. In many cases it’s young people committing the crimes. In other cases its roving gangs from the East.

What I don’t understand is why this situation is tolerated and people don’t demand action. In the county in Virginia where I live people would:
• Use the political process, informing their local representative that if he expects to get re-elected, he’ll fix the problem.
• Work with the local police to identify solutions.
• Work at the local level to ensure adequate resources are allocated to combat the situation.
• Form neighborhood watch groups to patrol and report suspicious activities and individuals to the police.

Speculation as to why the problem persists:

• The police don’t have the manpower and financial resources to cope with the problem.
• Burglaries are so frequent the police are apathetic and rationalize that the victim will be reimbursed by their insurance company.
• Juveniles will generally not be incarcerated and will soon be back on the street to continue their crimes, so why bother?

Maybe it’s because Americans have more of a problem solving take charge attitude that most of us would demand action. I thought the fundamental duty of any government is to protect its citizens.

Apropos of the vous/tu comments, It's my experience that young Germans liberally use the informal "Du" rather than the formal "Sie". I guess they're becoming Americanized.

Tchuss.

[Bevdeforges]

The police situation where you are may be related to the way the French justice system is organized. I don't totally understand how the system is organized in France, but there are a couple factors that seem significant:

The gendarmes are actually organized at the national level, not at the local level. The local officials (i.e. at the mairie) don't have much (if any) influence over the gendarmes. Some towns have a city or municipal police, but (at least according to my husband) the local police are kind of informal and seem to have pretty limited areas of authority.

There is also this whole thing about the "investigating judges" that Sarkozy is supposed to be eliminating. It doesn't seem to be the duty of the police/gendarmes to investigate crimes - at least not in the sense we're used to it in the US (or from US based cop shows). Now, the investigating judges they are trying to get rid of don't deal with local crimes like burglary, so I don't know just who is responsible for this sort of thing. But it doesn't seem to be the police.
Cheers,
Bev