culture shock

[frogblogger]

Going back to the tu/vous issue when addressing parents, here's a passage from a classic I am reading at the moment... Aliocha, by Henri Troyat [p.36]. Set in 1924, student in a Neuilly lycée Alexis (Aliocha in Russian) is listening to his schoolfriend Thierry addressing his mother:

- "Vous savez maman, qu'Alexis a beaucoup de talent ?" dit Thierry. "Il a emballé Colinard, hier matin, en 'expression libre'."

Alexis s'étonna d'entendre Thierry vouvoyer sa mère. Sans doute était-ce une habitude dans les familles françaises de qualité ...

So even back in the far more traditional 1920s, it was considered to be somewhat unusual!

Translation...

"Did you know Maman, Alexis is very talented?" said Thierry. "He really delighted Colinard yesterday morning, in free composition."

Alexis was quite astonished to hear Thierry address his mother as "vous". No doubt it was customary behaviour in French families of quality ...

[GALLUS]

about Tu and Vous, this is what I do, in formal work environments for instance

- I use First name, but use vous: "Laurent, vous allez ou pour dejeuner"?
- if need be depending on relationship, either the person our yourself can propose shifting to Tu (it is usually the older person or a lady asking)

best regards

Gallus

[xveruskax]

Originally Posted by GALLUS

about Tu and Vous, this is what I do, in formal work environments for instance

- I use First name, but use vous: "Laurent, vous allez ou pour dejeuner"?
- if need be depending on relationship, either the person our yourself can propose shifting to Tu (it is usually the older person or a lady asking)

best regards

Gallus

thank you. that helps a lot.

[MichaelS]

One of the biggest "shocks" for me, and something that still bothers me everyday is the general state of cleanliness. I live in Lyon, but other big cities in France seem to be about the same. Compared to where I lived in the US (Seattle, WA) French cities are dirty. Buildings are covered in graffiti, dog poop on nearly every block of sidewalk, and it is still quite common to see men and kids (and occasionally women) pissing in public behind a bush or around a corner. Trash is not uncommon on the streets, and "unpleasant" smells are too common.

I have never been to really dense US cities like New York or Boston, and only briefly been to Chicago, so maybe it is unfair to compare Lyon to Seattle, but for me the things mentioned above really bother me.

One of the things that shocked my father while visiting is the French openness about sexuality and nudity. Cosmetic stores frequently display advertisements featuring topless women, newstands do not attempt to hide the porno mags, and prime-time public tv doesn't beep out the cuss words and cut the nude scenes. I actually prefer these cultural differences myself.

EDIT: I do not mean to infer that French cities are unsanitary, but visually and sometimes olfactorily, less than what I expected.

[Bevdeforges]

I know I was blown away when we had to leave the local church early during the marriage of our neighbors. Pulling out of the parking lot, there was a man taking a pee on the corner of the church. I was kind of shocked, but my husband pointed out that these old churches weren't built in the days of indoor plumbing, and many have never had "facilities" installed.

You do still see guys taking a leak by the side of the road (generally pointed away from the traffic), though I've noticed lately the "custom" seems to be less common. (Or maybe I'm just getting used to it.)
Cheers,
Bev

[frogblogger]

Same in Walloon Belgium, I can remember my parents' shock back in the 70s, when my 14 year old exchange correspondent from Liège was staying with us for the first time. A day after his arrival we were driving around Loch Awe in Scotland, and he needed a pee. Despite the plentiful trees all around, he managed to get about 6 feet from the car and no further.

As for cleanliness in French towns, 'Old Europe' sometimes suffers from this, the infrastucture often isn't up to modern demands. No excuse for the dog poop though. Still, it could be a lot worse! Only two weeks ago I was still wandering through Chiang Mai - as usual at a given point on my route, roughly 50 metres short of a small canal, I began to hold my breath, only releasing it the same distance on the other side. Some of the unexpected odours you come across in SE Asia make France smell like a perfume factory in comparison!

[Coton90]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

One of the biggest "shocks" for me, and something that still bothers me everyday is the general state of cleanliness. I live in Lyon, but other big cities in France seem to be about the same. Compared to where I lived in the US (Seattle, WA) French cities are dirty. Buildings are covered in graffiti, dog poop on nearly every block of sidewalk, and it is still quite common to see men and kids (and occasionally women) pissing in public behind a bush or around a corner. Trash is not uncommon on the streets, and "unpleasant" smells are too common.

I have never been to really dense US cities like New York or Boston, and only briefly been to Chicago, so maybe it is unfair to compare Lyon to Seattle, but for me the things mentioned above really bother me.

One of the things that shocked my father while visiting is the French openness about sexuality and nudity. Cosmetic stores frequently display advertisements featuring topless women, newstands do not attempt to hide the porno mags, and prime-time public tv doesn't beep out the cuss words and cut the nude scenes. I actually prefer these cultural differences myself.

EDIT: I do not mean to infer that French cities are unsanitary, but visually and sometimes olfactorily, less than what I expected.

If you take the Autobahn 8 past Saarbruecken, Germany you are immediately aware when you’ve crossed the border into France; even if there were no border crossing sign. The contrasts are startling. The homes seem dirty, run-down and in various states of disrepair. While the Germans have an obsession with cleanliness these values are not shared on the other side of the border.

There is apparently an exception if maintaining the state of cleanliness results in a loss of revenue. Take a stroll down the Ile de France area in Paris and tell me if you think it’s dirty. The same holds true in other tourist areas. The town I’m moving to depends on the tourist industry. Consequently they’ve set aside sufficient funds to maintain a satisfactory level of cleanliness. I noticed the same in the Costa Brava, Spain. There’s a stark contrast to the way it looked in the early 80s and the way it currently looks in terms of cleanliness as so much of their revenue is generated by tourism. In all fairness, the last time I was in Times Square New York a few years ago, the degree of cleanliness was appalling.

We’re moving to a new subdivision outside of town with all fairly new single-family houses and I don’t see any difference with the subdivision where we currently live.

Yes you do see men relieve themselves in public places, but it’s not just the French. You often see the same thing in Germany along the autobahn rest stops; people relieving themselves, coming from vehicles with German license plates. It’s a matter of plain laziness as all the rest stops have convenient WC facilities; it’s just some people are too lazy to use them.

As far as displays of nudity in advertising, you find this all over Europe in shops as well as magazines and it’s not a big deal. I never found them to be vulgar, lewd or suggestive. This is a matter of values and it’s wrong to believe all cultures ought to have the same values and standards. If people find this offensive, they should stay out of art museums as well.

Note to Peter. Don’t step on the “Night Soil”.

[GALLUS]

Yes indeed, town and country side are dirty. So are the French apparently (they are not very good with showers and baths, and rather prefer perfume).

I am French myself, and have spend a good long time in the "cleanest" country in the world: Switzerland. No dog poo there, or else your neighbor will report you and you pay a fine, and they are on the permanent watch. I was reported because my visitor parked on the wrong parking lot instead of using the Visitor parking bay. Little graffitis. Same cause same effects.

But overall, the country is equally extremely polluted and rather dirty as well, with illegal dumps here and there. Papers and scraps dumped in yards, town and villages. And cleanliness is only an appearance: they do not wash more than the French, sometimes less, but they have a clean culture: take a shower after sport at school, .... The kitchen of your local restaurant or your local butcher is rather disgusting, and food poisoning extremely common. Toilets are rather on the clean side in private places, I agree. Public toilets are rare. At least you can use them for what they are made for. Not in France, with rare exceptions.

You can now pick an other European country: Belgium, Germany, UK are rather cleaner than France considering the dog poo issue. For the rest, I see no difference. And people tell me that big towns in the US look like the third world. Is that true? I have not gone because of Law enforcement issues.

I understand it is a culture shock to live in a town where thousand of pets poo on the pavement every morning and every evening in a general indifference. I personally use hot pepper paste and other organic products that I regularly spay in my street to prevent dogs from ...... but I cannot control the crowd.

I also understand that is is a culture shock to see naked bodies in a Pharmacy window, or cars parked on a zebra crossing, people French kissing everywhere. This is France as it is today. Just learn not to slip on the p....., kick a few dogs in the rear when needed, lough at the pharmacy window (after all you have the same body, no?), and call the nearest cop when you see a car on the zebra crossing.

If you do that, you are becoming French, just be careful.

[Coton90]

Originally Posted by GALLUS

Yes indeed, town and country side are dirty. So are the French apparently (they are not very good with showers and baths, and rather prefer perfume).

I am French myself, and have spend a good long time in the "cleanest" country in the world: Switzerland. No dog poo there, or else your neighbor will report you and you pay a fine, and they are on the permanent watch. I was reported because my visitor parked on the wrong parking lot instead of using the Visitor parking bay. Little graffitis. Same cause same effects.

But overall, the country is equally extremely polluted and rather dirty as well, with illegal dumps here and there. Papers and scraps dumped in yards, town and villages. And cleanliness is only an appearance: they do not wash more than the French, sometimes less, but they have a clean culture: take a shower after sport at school, .... The kitchen of your local restaurant or your local butcher is rather disgusting, and food poisoning extremely common. Toilets are rather on the clean side in private places, I agree. Public toilets are rare. At least you can use them for what they are made for. Not in France, with rare exceptions.

You can now pick an other European country: Belgium, Germany, UK are rather cleaner than France considering the dog poo issue. For the rest, I see no difference. And people tell me that big towns in the US look like the third world. Is that true? I have not gone because of Law enforcement issues.

I understand it is a culture shock to live in a town where thousand of pets poo on the pavement every morning and every evening in a general indifference. I personally use hot pepper paste and other organic products that I regularly spay in my street to prevent dogs from ...... but I cannot control the crowd.

I also understand that is is a culture shock to see naked bodies in a Pharmacy window, or cars parked on a zebra crossing, people French kissing everywhere. This is France as it is today. Just learn not to slip on the p....., kick a few dogs in the rear when needed, lough at the pharmacy window (after all you have the same body, no?), and call the nearest cop when you see a car on the zebra crossing.

If you do that, you are becoming French, just be careful.

As far as the French not, showering, this has not been my experience. This is based on my admittedly non-scientific random statistical samples in supermarkets and shopping centers in Lorraine, Alsace, Provence, Languedoc, Normandy, Brittany and Perigord. For every 60 people, maybe there was one that could have used a shower. The odds were different when I first went to Europe in 83. It seemed to be more prevalent with older people but it was not just limited to France. I remember a few times in Germany when I was seriously overjoyed to get off the bus. I have not been to the seedier parts of Paris and Lyon so I can't say if B.O. is more of a problem there.

[Bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by Coton90

As far as the French not, showering, this has not been my experience. This is based on my admittedly non-scientific random statistical samples in supermarkets and shopping centers in Lorraine, Alsace, Provence, Languedoc, Normandy, Brittany and Perigord. For every 60 people, maybe there was one that could have used a shower. The odds were different when I first went to Europe in 83. It seemed to be more prevalent with older people but it was not just limited to France. I remember a few times in Germany when I was seriously overjoyed to get off the bus. I have not been to the seedier parts of Paris and Lyon so I can't say if B.O. is more of a problem there.

As I try to explain it to some people, "there is a difference in hygiene standards" between France and the US, for example. Just recently had this borne out, too.

We've had one of those sonic electric toothbrushes for quite some time here in France. Over here, all the instruction manuals and cartons say that you should change the toothbrush head every six months. Fair enough - though that seemed a little long between replacements to me.

I was back in the US a couple weeks ago and saw the replacement heads on sale, so was considering buying some (with cheap dollars) to take back. On the packaging there, it says that you should replace the toothbrush head every 3 months.

I must say I have noticed (when going in to do bisous) that the French don't seem to brush their teeth nearly as often as do most Americans. In fact, my French sister in law once asked me quite seriously if I "always" brush my teeth before I go to bed, because evidently no one in her family does.

I've also had a French dentist complain to me how badly the French care for their teeth. It has only been in the last 10 years or so that you could even find dental floss in the stores.
Cheers,
Bev