culture shock

[xveruskax]

tu et vous, du und Sie, tu y Usted
These have definite implications for how social language is used with certain people. In both Spanish and German I've tended to use the polite forms with people I don't know that well, even within family. I imagine the same kind of precaution is appropriate in French. With people you would like to be "familiar" with, it's always fine to openly ask if it's appropriate to speak in the familiar way with them. I'm glad to now know the proper term in French: tutoyer.

I've heard the cheek kissing can be a bit difficult. I found this in a French language textbook I'm using to learn French though I'm not sure how accurate it is:
In many French-speaking countries, people kiss each other on the
cheek or shake hands when they meet. In everyday situations, men
shake hands, while women more often kiss, and mixed couples will
kiss or shake hands depending on their level of acquaintance. The
kiss (\le bisou" or \la bise") begins on the right cheek rst, which
means you should move your head to your left ; the number of kisses
varies from one to four depending on the region or country and on
the level of emotion. A kiss or handshake is also given upon leaving,
even if the two parties have only been together a few minutes !
Another aspect of French-speaking cultures you should be aware
of is the space between people. In many countries, people stand
much closer together when talking than Americans do, so do not
feel intimidated or

[Bevdeforges]

Tutoyer and vousvoyer, plus giving les bises are two of the trickiest areas for newcomers to France (at least among the anglophones).

In Germany, it was comparatively easier. We addressed everyone as Herr This and Frau That and while doing so, we used Sie (the formal). You generally duzen'd someone only if you addressed them by first name. And, even better, there was a "ceremony" of sorts when you agreed to duzen someone (i.e. use the familiar form and first names) - involving drinking beer together.

The French are more subtle. It's generally best to start with vous, but now and then you'll run into someone who is "offended" by being vousvoyer'd when they feel they are "close" to you. And you get very strange looks if you (by accident) use vous with children or animals, who are normally tutoyer'd.

Bisous are worse! Most people start on the right as mentioned in the article you cite - but some start on the other side. To some extent, it's two for acquaintances and four for close friends. But then you run into the situation where you pull away when someone is "expecting" to do four. You can get out of it if you claim to feel a cold coming on - and I expect to be able to avoid some bisous this winter thanks to the swine flu.

Then there are the "hypocritical" bisous - where you're expected to bisous someone you really dislike but you have to kiss them because they are family or close to a family member, or sometimes just a dirty old man (or woman, I suppose). Or worse, making bisous with folks with really awful bad breath (and dental hygiene is another of those "cultural differences" that crops up more often than you might expect).
Cheers,
Bev

[frogblogger]

The 2/4 bises split holds true for the Paris region and large parts of northern France. There are many regional variations, including some surprising ones like a single bise in the extreme western Brittany department, Finistère. It's just two in the Lyon region and surrounding departments (whether close family or not), an unwavering three in parts of Provence and Languedoc, two again in the Pyrenees, the Alps and Eastern France, a 2/5 casual acquaintance/family-close friends split in Corsica, a majority 4 in parts of the Loire Valley and the Champagne area. Confused? Some interesting stats in pie chart form towards the bottom of this page!

As for H1N1 fears, they've already banned the bise in a couple of schools... wonder what effect a major epidemic would have.

[Coton90]

Originally Posted by Bevdeforges

The police situation where you are may be related to the way the French justice system is organized. I don't totally understand how the system is organized in France, but there are a couple factors that seem significant:

The gendarmes are actually organized at the national level, not at the local level. The local officials (i.e. at the mairie) don't have much (if any) influence over the gendarmes. Some towns have a city or municipal police, but (at least according to my husband) the local police are kind of informal and seem to have pretty limited areas of authority.

There is also this whole thing about the "investigating judges" that Sarkozy is supposed to be eliminating. It doesn't seem to be the duty of the police/gendarmes to investigate crimes - at least not in the sense we're used to it in the US (or from US based cop shows). Now, the investigating judges they are trying to get rid of don't deal with local crimes like burglary, so I don't know just who is responsible for this sort of thing. But it doesn't seem to be the police.
Cheers,
Bev

Well this only points to a cultural difference; that people are willing to tolerate this situation and not form a grass roots movement to bring about change at the local level. I'd be very surprised to hear if burglaries are not investigated in the UK. Laws are only good as their enforcement, otherwise they're superfluous. A case of breaking and entering can rapidly escalate to case of assault and battery and it's usually the same people that are responsible for the crime spree. I wonder if the President's house were burglarized things might change?

Speaking of the Gendarmerie, my wife's Uncle Roland retired from the Gendarmerie and lives in Bonson. In fact we stayed with him one time on the Gendarmerie installation in Lyon when he was still active duty. He grew up in Africa and had quite a collection of African artifacts. Wouldn't you know it, thieves broke into his house and took everything. There is no way his collection can be replaced.

I don't see the point of security cameras if no one is going to look at the evidence. The best solution to the problem is deterrence; an increased security presence, not excluding hiring private security companies operating within the framework of the law: most criminals don't like to be observed caught in the act. Either that or have my friend's cousin Guido from New Jersey "talk" to these people :

[frogblogger]

I wonder what the odds are on being burgled in the US... These stats aren't very recent (2005), but they show some interesting regional differences and trends around France. The Herault isn't the worst department, but at a 9.13 in 1000 chance of being burgled each year, it's well above the 'safest' department at 2.10 (the Cantal). Most show significant drops year on year.

The national French figure (5.7 per 1,000 people) is lower than in this older worldwide national study (6.1) but interestingly, France - according to those figures - is statistically safer, in terms of burglaries, than the US!

Clearly the threat of having your hand chopped off is the best deterrent of all! (See Saudi Arabia)...

[frogblogger]

Interesting stats on the probability of violent assault too, around the world. France actually does quite well in comparison to the likes of the US and the UK in these figures from the Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, (1998 - 2000).

[minesthechevy]

<<<I'd be very surprised to hear if burglaries are not investigated in the UK. >>>

Be surprised, then. There is a saying nowadays in the uk - 'Get yourself mugged. Call the plod, and call for a pizza at the same time. See which arrives first'.

The police are so intent on reaching their 'targets' that they spend their resources on easy wins rather than real crime... take a look at the truly disgusting case of Fiona Pilkington in the news at the moment if you dont believe me.

[Coton90]

Originally Posted by frogblogger

I wonder what the odds are on being burgled in the US... These stats aren't very recent (2005), but they show some interesting regional differences and trends around France. The Herault isn't the worst department, but at a 9.13 in 1000 chance of being burgled each year, it's well above the 'safest' department at 2.10 (the Cantal). Most show significant drops year on year.

The national French figure (5.7 per 1,000 people) is lower than in this older worldwide national study (6.1) but interestingly, France - according to those figures - is statistically safer, in terms of burglaries, than the US!

Clearly the threat of having your hand chopped off is the best deterrent of all! (See Saudi Arabia)...

It could be this particular town is the outlier and the data becomes normalized as you throw in the entire Herault population. I wonder if all victims even bother reporting an incident to the police knowing the police aren't going to do anything. If this is the case than the statistics could be off.

The neighborhood where I currently live is pretty safe. We have a neighborhood watch association and quite a few people have security service providers but about five miles south of here its a different ball game. Speaking of ball games, I'm taking my "Louisville Slugger" (Baseball bat) with me to France and if anybody breaks in, I'm going to hit a line drive to their knee-cap.

[xveruskax]

Originally Posted by Bevdeforges

Tutoyer and vousvoyer, plus giving les bises are two of the trickiest areas for newcomers to France (at least among the anglophones).

The French are more subtle. It's generally best to start with vous, but now and then you'll run into someone who is "offended" by being vousvoyer'd when they feel they are "close" to you. And you get very strange looks if you (by accident) use vous with children or animals, who are normally tutoyer'd.

Bisous are worse! Most people start on the right as mentioned in the article you cite - but some start on the other side. To some extent, it's two for acquaintances and four for close friends. But then you run into the situation where you pull away when someone is "expecting" to do four. You can get out of it if you claim to feel a cold coming on - and I expect to be able to avoid some bisous this winter thanks to the swine flu.

Then there are the "hypocritical" bisous - where you're expected to bisous someone you really dislike but you have to kiss them because they are family or close to a family member, or sometimes just a dirty old man (or woman, I suppose). Or worse, making bisous with folks with really awful bad breath (and dental hygiene is another of those "cultural differences" that crops up more often than you might expect).
Cheers,
Bev

I had mentioned the possibility of asking an individual whether it was appropriate to use 'tu' instead of 'vous', in Spanish this is appropriate. Is this something that would be possible with the French? Or would it cross an invisible cultural line?

Bisous sounds like an adventure. I'll keep the cold option in mind.

[Coton90]

Originally Posted by xveruskax

I had mentioned the possibility of asking an individual whether it was appropriate to use 'tu' instead of 'vous', in Spanish this is appropriate. Is this something that would be possible with the French? Or would it cross an invisible cultural line?

Bisous sounds like an adventure. I'll keep the cold option in mind.

My resident expert, my French wife, informs me this is not done in France. It is the same in German. I never used the informal "Du" without an invitation, as it presumes a level of familiarity that the addressee may not be comfortable with. On ocassion, when I got to know someone, I would invite them to use the familiar or let them call me by my first name. Often, the person would reciprocate.

Ciao