France and the matter of immigration

[frogblogger]

With respect to the tightening of immigration policy, this is much less to do with the aforementioned terrorist atrocities as it is with the long-standing French 'problem' with immigration from North African countries. There is a simmering resentment of immigrants from the latter that is easily played upon by the political right wing in times of economic difficulty. Successive right of centre governments have been cornered into giving credence to those fears in order to prevent too many votes going to the FN, and to capture a few votes from the Socialistes. Electoral promises were made, and Sarko has gradually been implementing a few surreptitious changes. They have remained relatively limited because French governments of any political hue are notoriously afraid of the reaction of the people (and the Parti Socialiste is generally speaking against more restrictions). They are also afraid of the reaction of the Muslim immigrant population - this has been estimated at 10% of the population - following the major riots of recent years.

So the government is stuck between the devil and the deep blue in policy terms - long gone are the inter-war and post-WWII days of a desperate need for immigrant labour - since the early 80s in fact. Today a sizeable proportion of the French population sees these immigrants as surplus to requirements, with growing influence, and a birthrate at twice the level of the non-Muslim part of the population. Some are very afraid of a Kosovo-style situation developing eventually, with scaremongering from the FN suggesting that with the current birth rates the size of the Muslim population could actually overtake that of the remainder within two or three decades.

In times of recession these problems can only get worse, so expect more political posturing from Sarko, not less. Nothing to do with 9/11 per se, other than that it was a good excuse to speed up certain reforms the French right wing has been looking at for thirty years or so.

[minesthechevy]

Pete the frogblogger has actually summed up the french domestic situation very well; although the Kosova analogy might be a tad out, because of the inherently greater stability of french society. But then again, in 30-50 years time, when the foods running out but before the world de-population happens, who knows?

40-odd years ago a rather intelligent British politician called Enoch Powell made predictions about 'rivers of blood' in british streets unless limits were placed on immigration. OK, his style of speech was a bit lurid, but he was vilified from all sides for making his observations. Today, you can't even mention his name without someone jumping on the bandwagon and calling you a racist.

And yet, and yet - we have seen a few clashes on the streets of british cities, and unfortunately the BNP (British National Party) are a convenient scapegoat to pin the blame on. We've seen the banlieus getting restless on occasion - what next?

[c. nuttee]

I agree that there is an under current of animosity toward certain ethnicities in France, and recent events have been used as a guise to walk an anti-immigrant and racist agenda through official channels. Although we talk about race relations endlessly in the USA. And that might look bad on the world stage.
All our whining and crying over race in the USA. WE ARE SO FAR AHEAD OF FRANCE AND EUROPE. Sorry the USA rocks in this regard in comparison.
Especially in employment. Also the anti-semitism expressed by the mainstream media in France is plain alarming. In retaliation ethinic minorities tend to be
more in your face about their cultural background whatever it is. It is not a melting pot like the USA. More of a silent fuming on the backburner. France will need to go through some kind of change in the next years. I soppose most of Europe and the EU will as well. The good part is that the USA and Europe to me are overall culturally going in the same direction. I feel by 2050 the world language will be english although of course most people bilingual in their own language. So, I find this development of a common language exciting.

So as ex-pats, we feel some of the social bite of an anti-immigrant agenda even if it is not directed at us specifically. Some good points you brought up.

C. Nuttee

[c. nuttee]

I read in the NYT that the USA give 1 MILLION citizenships a year and as many green cards each year. Mostly to relatives of immigrants. People bringing their families over. WOW. The prediction is that by 2050 the USA population will increase from the current 300 million to 500 million. Although the birthrate in the USA is steady this additional population should more than pay for social services for the aging baby boomers. These are not babies coming to the USA. These are hard working, motivated adults wanting to make something of themselves in the USA system. It is really inspiring that so many people are attracted to immigrating to the USA despite the difficulties. I sopp0se many other countries like India or China don't have as many immigrants. So, although immigration is used by politicians to scare people to vote in certain ways. Immigration in the USA is going to make the USA a stronger place. Especially as all those workers
pay into the system, thus making the USA that much more wealthy. NEAT.
Sorry to be so enthusiastic. I am trying to say that immigration is not always seen as a bad thing by everybody.

For me immigrating to France has been financially terrible as I can not earn
as much as I did in the USA. That has been a lot to accept. My husband is a normal wage earner. Sigh, I would basically be loaded in the USA.

C. Nuttee

[Bevdeforges]

As you've probably noticed, I've split off this latest twist of another thread into a thread of its own.

Carry on, folks...
Cheers,
Bev

[Bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by c. nuttee

All our whining and crying over race in the USA. WE ARE SO FAR AHEAD OF FRANCE AND EUROPE. Sorry the USA rocks in this regard in comparison.
Especially in employment.

I suspect you're going to get a little bit of argument on this point. At least I hope you do, because if you don't I've underestimated the debate skills of our European members here.

While I sort of agree that the US's policy of "affirmative action" has done a good job of integrating minorities into the work force, especially at upper levels where they just weren't 30 or 40 years ago, I'm not sure "positive discrimination" is going to find a home here in Europe anytime soon.

The nature of discrimination here in France (at least) is considerably different than the (let's face it) racism that developed in the US over the centuries. In fact, I don't feel comfortable calling the discrimination in France "racism" at all - it's far more culturally based. And it's that cultural basis that results in us "foreigners" feeling that we're being discriminated against, too, even if we're (to use an old American expression), "free, white and 21."

And there are ways that the French and Europeans are way ahead of the US, too. My first time living in Europe, back in 1989, I was seriously impressed by the number of mixed race couples you see just out and around - most with babies or children - and no one hassling them or even "looking funny" at them.

Anyhow, let's throw this topic out on the floor and see what we come up with...
Cheers,
Bev

[c. nuttee]

I agree that both in the USA and France the happenings in 2000 etc. have been used for political purposes.

[c. nuttee]

I just had another thought Frogblogger. Hey by the way I know of another Englishman who is married to a Thai woman living in Thailand. His name is Brian B.

My new thought was about Germany. I have a dear old friend who is German in Paris and he said that about 25% of the German population is now muslim. The birth rate is higher for these communities and as a result as much as 50% of new births are muslim. So, as both the USA and Europe become less traditionally eurocentric, for me the solution is to continue the wonderful democratic ideals in the midst of these changes. The USA is unique as it was founded on ideals. Ah, as an ex-pat I feel the USA has a bit more light around her for that reason. Although she is an annoying and noisy country she seems to have some more light because of the striving toward ideals.

Another interesting issue is should Turkey be allowd in the EU. For me I actually liked Sarkozy's solution of their being a mediteranian EU. Also Poland's inclusion in the EU has
brought a lot of Polish people all over europe. I also have a good friend in Paris who is Polish
and he has tried to get a USA visa to visit but there are very tight restriction on Poles visiting the USA because to be honest they rarely return. And the cost of the visas are prohibitive.
Me and Jacyk laugh because we thought that if they ever allowed that three month tourist visit thing like they do for Germany or France, England etc. That immediately 2 million polish people would do a great exedus to Chicago and never be heard from again in Poland.
This is a big issue for Polish people that although these newer EU states have some new freedoms. There are also the realities of their economic situation and history to contend with.
As a result Polish people will unlikely be given the three month open tourist visas like the older EU countries any time soon.

Just talking away, I don't start back to work until next week, and my three year old son is in school, than will have no time again once I go back to work next week.

Christine

[frogblogger]

My new thought was about Germany. I have a dear old friend who is German in Paris and he said that about 25% of the German population is now muslim.

Germany has around 3 million mainly Turkish origin Muslims, ie approximately 3.6% of the German population (source: Total population - Federal Statistical Office, 2004 figures; Muslim population - Federal Ministry of the Interior estimate).

It may have gone up a little over the past five years, but I doubt another 20 million have suddenly turned up!

[c. nuttee]

Frogblogger, I should have specified in the major cities of Germany. I just start writing in a conversational manner.

I just read this in the New York Times on the front page, how a republican heckler
disrupted Obamas speech on health care trying to use immigration as a scare tactic. at least highlighting it.

the article is titled something about"Breach of Protocol, Lawmaker Outburst etc.?" It is right on the front page.

...copied some of it NYT's article, shows how the right is trying to use immigration as a scare tactic.

..."In an angry and very audible outburst, Representative Joe Wilson, Republican of South Carolina, interrupted President Obama’s speech Wednesday night with a shout of “You lie!”

His eruption — in response to Mr. Obama’s statement that Democratic health proposals would not cover illegal immigrants — stunned members of both parties in the House chamber.

Democrats said it showed lack of respect for the office of the presidency and was reminiscent of Republican disruptions at recent public forums on health care.

“It is outrageous,” said Representative Joseph Crowley, Democrat of New York, who said it reminded him of the “antics that are being used to disrupt and fog what is going on.”

After the speech, Rahm Emanuel, the White House chief of staff who sat a few rows in front of Mr. Wilson, said he immediately approached senior Republican lawmakers to encourage them to identify the heckler and urge him to issue an apology quickly.

“No president has ever been treated like that. Ever,” Mr. Emanuel said.

Other Democrats said they did not want to dwell on the outburst or allow it to overshadow what they saw as an effective address by the president. But they also said it bolstered their contention that some Republicans were not interested in constructive dialogue, and they noted that Democratic plans specifically barred coverage for illegal immigrants.

Republicans also said the heckling was out of line. “I think we ought to treat the president with respect,” said Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Republican leader, “and anything other than that is not appropriate.”

Mr. Wilson seemed rattled in the wake of his comment, and quickly left the chamber at the end of the speech.

His office later issued an apology, saying: “This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the president’s remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill. While I disagree with the president’s statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the president for this lack of civility.”

Mr. Wilson also phoned the White House and reached Mr. Emanuel, who accepted an apology on behalf of the president.

Critical body language and murmurs of disapproval are typical at presidential addresses and part of the political theater. But members of both parties were trying to recollect such a pointed attack from an individual lawmaker at a presidential address and noted that a similar remark could draw a formal reprimand if delivered at a routine session of the House..."

cont.

c. nuttee (i love my name)