France and the matter of immigration

[frogblogger]

Frogblogger, I should have specified in the major cities of Germany.

Not even in the major cities of Germany. Different sources estimate the number of Muslims in Berlin at between 5.9% and 9% (the latter including naturalised German citizens, and from an unverified Muslim source).

Just a quick glance at a couple of other German cities, selected at random - Hamburg has approximately 70,000 Muslims out of1.8m (just under 3.9%). Heading south, Munich has around 85,000 Muslims (population 1.34 million, so roughly 6.3%).

Perhaps your friend was referring to the number of foreigners in certain German cities, rather than Muslims? Frankfurt, Stuttgart and Munich are all somewhere between 22% and 26% with respect the number of foreigners in each of these cities (the highest proportions in German cities).

(One city where there is an estimated 25% Muslim population is Marseille).

[c. nuttee]

Again, thanx for giving me the benefit of the doubt. Nice conversing with you.
I wanted to add that he did mean foreigners in general whom he refers
to them all as muslim but then I would have to admit his racist bent and
I like him. So yes, thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.

Did you see that New York Times article excerpt? Isn't that horrible that
in an audience of professionals, civility was lost by that crazed republican?

I for one have a beautiful Obama poster in my sons bedroom and another
poster from a french magazine with all the indigenous cultures of the world
described in detail. Both in very expensive plastic poster covers with frames,
because I want him to look at these images growing up.

Personally, I think interracial marriage will solve many of the worlds problems.
That and the attaction of the American television series. Sex and TV American
style. Oh, I am Dutch and Native American and a Tad Polish, raised on an Indian Reservation in the USA and spent many years in Mexico as a teen. Two very little used languages by the way, Dutch or Native American, the spanish does
come in handy.

C. Nuttee ( I love my name)

[frogblogger]

All our whining and crying over race in the USA. WE ARE SO FAR AHEAD OF FRANCE AND EUROPE. Sorry the USA rocks in this regard in comparison.
Especially in employment. Also the anti-semitism expressed by the mainstream media in France is plain alarming.

As Bev suggested, I'm a afraid I can't let that one pass!

It's important on forums like this one to try to avoid rhetoric, or at the very least to provide some evidence in support of claims. Otherwise we can be guilty of misleading people with less knowledge of the topics and countries concerned.

Alleged anti-semitism in the French media is a case in point. France has some of the toughest anti-semitism laws in the world. A free press has a whole range of perspectives on the likes of the Middle East conflict, some will be in favour of Israel's position, some have less sympathy. If you must make sweeping generalisations about bias in the French media, especially on sensitive topics such as this, then it is vital to supply supporting evidence. Otherwise, best not to make claims like this in the first place.

With respect to the alleged superior performance of the US in terms of racial integration, I am highly sceptical to say the least. A few thoughts...

Do blacks and whites live in mixed residential areas? Is residential segregation not still largely the situation throughout the US, 30 years after Civil Rights?

Are mixed race marriages easily accepted, as in Europe? If not, why not?

What about racial disparities in mortality rates?

Massive wealth differentials? The average white is 10 ten wealthier than the average African American. The racist element to this stems from the fact that investment is rewarded rather than waged labour, and the African Americans started with a rather large handicap in that respect.

Health care inequalities?

It seems to me that institutional racism is alive and well in the US, although these days racism manifests itself in a less overt manner in the West generally.

On the current uproar over the question Obama wishes schoolchildren to ask themselves, "What can I do to help President Obama?". I'm trying to imagine how Republicans would have reacted had it once been suggested schoolchildren ask themselves "What can I do to help President Reagan?" My guess is that they would have been delighted kids were being taught the virtues of patriotism. I suspect there are racial undertones to the current reaction - to a European it doesn't make much sense that a relatively innocuous question could cause so much fuss.

Anyway, this is a French forum thread, so I don't want to go into this much more - unless the thread gets back on track, maybe it should move over to the Lounge...

Just a few final points...

Europe has been a melting pot for different races and cultures for far longer than the US.

People are attracted to emigrating to the US because they will go anywhere where there is a chance of a better life, ie a better life meaning not starving to death or being discriminated against on sexual, racial, tribal, religious grounds. It's not that they see the US as a shining beacon any more than Europe - it's just that they are desperate. Plenty do try to go to Europe, but in certain cases these are areas of highly dense population with limited employment opportunities, and further immigration would just exacerbate the problems. So immigration laws are (currently) tight.

For immigrants to contribute to a nation's wealth, they have to be able to get a job in the first place. Remind me, how many unemployed are there in the States right now?

The USA is unique as it was founded on ideals. Ah, as an ex-pat I feel the USA has a bit more light around her for that reason.

Take a look at the constitutions of any democratic country around the world. The same ideals are to be found, wherever you look. And going back to the 13th century, there was a certain manuscript called the Magna Carta which was a precursor of constitutional law, influencing the US Constitution and the development common law and numerous constitutional documents.

By the way... while on the topic of racial discrimination... did the light of idealism you mentioned shine on the Native Americans, at the time the US Constitution was being drawn up?

[c. nuttee]

Froggblogger and Bev,

You do not see brown face in any good job in France, teacher, nurse, any kind of government job, all good jobs are given to french people, yes a few ones in the media, in the USA it is totally normal in all employment sectors. Sorry to be so realistic.

C. Nuttee

[frogblogger]

You just can't make categorical sweeping statements like that and expect them to be given credence.

There are less mixed race and peoples from minorities employed in the better jobs in France, but "none"? Of course there are.

The situation is gradually improving, with recruitment campaigns aimed at the minorities, improved legislation tackling discrimination, better education. But problems persist - particularly French problems, as the integration of Muslim minorities into the French way of life has largely failed (blame on both sides), and those concerned are mostly living a cultural alternative reality. This is not a problem the US has had to cope with.

[c. nuttee]

Also I watch French talk shows and the things I hear are really awful compared to the USA, the inuendo, and what sickens me is that these undermeanings are not called out as wrong. Plus, I have NEVER seen an brown teacher in a french school yet. I soppose they exist, where only brown kids go. In the USA that is normal, totally normal. Just take a walkabout town. It does not take a particularily intelligent person to see that in the USA brown people are normally employed while in France they are in lower jobs. It is a fact of life here. Not in the USA, you see brown people in all manners of employment. Not just shop girls and daycare workers. In the USA you see brown people in all employment sectors. Even president.

C. Nuttee

[c. nuttee]

okay, I will make this place a deal. You show me one brown hand you have shook in the course of your daily transaction in the official french system and I will agree that France
has the minimal levels of employment opprotunities the USA has. THE MIMIMUM.
In the USA, people of all backgrounds own businesses, OWNE,D not just shop people. They
teach in the public schools, they work at the government offices, they are the nurses
in the hospitals and the legal worker throughout the system. In France you had better
be French to have a good slot. A good job. In the USA the employment opprotunities are open to everyone. That is the difference from the USA and France. Employment. Also you can get a job at 55-65 in the USA which is IMPOSSIBLE in France. sorry usa rocks. c. nuttee

[frogblogger]

Your comments are pure rhetoric, and bordering on racist themselves. I know many French people, from all backgrounds, who would feel very insulted indeed by such exaggerated and occasionally completely untrue assertions.

Unless you can avoid all the unfounded stereotypes, there is little point carrying on with this thread. It would be a shame to close the discussion, but rebutting claims of this kind made without the slightest supporting evidence is extremely time-consuming.

[c. nuttee]

My husband ex is algerian and so my sons half sibs are half arab.
In all my years teaching english at a high class school all I have
heard is awful racist stuff. Look, when I shake the first teachers
hand in a french school that is brown of any kind I will post it here.

In the USA it is normal for brown people to be throughout the system.
I am brown and I am very comfortable to talk about race stuff.
Your little tantrum DOES NOT SCARE ME FROM THE TRUTH.

NO YOUR LITTLE TANTRUM DOES NOT SCARE ME FROM THE TRUTH.

C. Nuttee

[frogblogger]

Jolly good, but reverse racism is not acceptable, and pigeon-holing the entire French population as intolerant bigots is as bad as the alleged discrimination that you are accusing them of. I am sorry that you do not realise that.

This thread is full of exaggerations and false claims, and is going absolutely nowhere, therefore it is now closed.