'Consumer protection' in France

[minesthechevy]

'Mis-selling' is now a hot topic in the UK, particularly in teh insurance fields.

Whats is the situation like in France over a product - NOT insurance - that the buyer feels has been inappropriately sold?

I know that ''devis'' are fairly immovable, fair enough, but what about situations where one can prove that a product was mis-sold.

[Bevdeforges]

"Inappropriately sold" in what sense?

French advertising law is pretty strict - it has to be in French, can't mention competitors, and generally French advertising is much less informative than in the UK or elsewhere, I guess because of the restrictions on making claims.

I do know that returning goods to a store can be a nightmare. But my impression has always been that the stores set their own return policies pretty much as they please.

Over the past weekend, I did catch an article in a German news magazine about how they have found that "bank counselors" are ripping off customers to push financial products that yield big commissions to the counselors. Have never seen that accusation in print in France - though I've always been suspicious of the counselors' constant push to "make an appointment" to discuss your finances.
Cheers,
Bev

[Matou]

For a more precise answer, please clarify "mis-selling".
Anyway, as far as consummer protection is concerned, in France when a professionnal deals with a person which is not a "specialist" of the matter (it works for any matter) said professionnal has "une obligation de conseil et d'information" (i.e. very well established caselaw based on the principle of "responsabilité contractuelle" derived from Art. 1134, 1135 & 1147 of the Civil code). When such a professionnal "forgets" to inform the client of something important (like a risk) or "convince" the person to get a product/service that he/she should not have bought because it was not his/her interest the professionnal could be liable for damages up to the value of the loss suffered.
Othewise, there is a very comprehensive consummer protection system in the Code de la consommation (included as a section of the Civil code since 1993), for exemple the consummer is protected against "clauses abusives" (i.e. when contracting with a non specialist a professionnal cannot use certain kinds of clauses that are considered too harsh, such a clause will be "réputée non écrite" = scraped from the contract ).

[minesthechevy]

Thanks Bev and Matou - Matou, your information about 'non-specialists' is very useful indeed.

Here's the scenario - My wife and I started to analyse our options for central heating this place - 450m2, so not a small project.

We have had several studies for various technologies made at our home, which all produced quotes in teh region of €25-31K. With every single firm, they were told it was a project for 2010, maybe 2011, maybe not at all.

One firm insisted on our signature on a Bon de Commande before proceeding with the EDF study of the electrical system; their rep and the EDF rep sat in our lounge and agreed that the signature was ONLY to enable the etude, and that there was no commitment, that they understood that it was very much a 'project', not a definite plan, etc. We had already established that the company rep understood english fairly well, and we pressed him on teh point of commitment. He assured us that even though it was on a Bon de Commande, it was just for a shopping list, and there was no commitment. Indeed, they said that they could not proceed to give us a price unless the study was made - which is reasonable I guess.

Well, you can see what's coming, can't you? The rep has phoned me again, for another EDF appointment, and when I told him we were not proceeding with it, he used the magic word 'obligation', and said he would send me a letter outlining the situation.

Well, to me, the situation is fairly clear - in front of a witness, he 'mis-sold' the purpose of teh Bon de Commande; he has ignored our repeated statements about the timescale and the very confirmation of the project itself.

However, there's no getting round the fact that I signed a BdC, which they now regard as a Devis. In resolving this matter, Im quite happy if their firm take refuge in teh fact that they were dealing with a 'furriner' who did not understand 'their' rules, but I rather think that they knew quite clearly what they were doing.

My next stop will be to brief a solicitor, but my intention in flying this here is to get background on where we stand.

[Matou]

minesthechevy, as I understand it, it is even worse than a simple breach of the obligation to counsel and inform the mundane.
First, keep in mind that it is not certain at all that you have passed a contract even if you have signed a "bon de commande" because the name on the document is not binding and depending on the factual situation said document can be interpreted as a request for an offer or as an acceptation of an offer. A valid contract will only exist in the second eventuality (N.B. in French law there is nothing like consideration, a contract is passed as soon as an offer is accepted).
Lets assume that you have passed a K with these companies. Then the question will be "which kind of K?". It could be a "contrat d'entreprise" (i.e. asking someone to "build someting for you according to specific parameters") or sort of "a pre-contract" for a study prior to the work (contrat de services). In this respect, I recommand you to ask these companies to precise wich obligation they consider you have contracted. Be careful, while doing so never admit that you are binded as it would be considered as "acquiessement"! Your "defense" will depend on their answer. If they ask you money only for the study it will be more difficult to avoid the "obligation" (provided there is a K). If they ask you to commit yourself for the work (and pay for it) you will be in a position to claim that the contract (if any) is not valid.
According to my understanding of the facts, the eventual K has been "vicié" (rendered irregular) either for (1) "dol" (fraud) on the ground that they lured you in signing a "bon de commande" for a work when you only requested a study or (2) "erreur" (mistake) as you were confused on the "substance" of the object of the K (i.e. study vs work).
According to Art. 1109 of the Civil Code a contract is void if the consent was given in "erreur" or because of "violence" or "dol".
According to article 1110 of the Civil code, to be sufficient to void a contract an "erreur" should concern the "substance" of the thing that is the object of the K (i.e. never the price).
According to article 1116, "dol" is enought to void a contract when it is clear that the "victim-party" would not have signed without the "manoeuvres" (trick) of the other party.
If you need the services of a French lawyer you would better consult (and later appoint if needed) a territorialy competent Avocat (i.e. from the Bar where the possible K was signed or from the Bar where one of the companies have its commercial seat). Keep also in mind that free consultations with an Avocat are available usualy in places like Mairies, Maisons de la Justice et du Droit, Courts, Bar...
Good luck!

[minesthechevy]

Matou, many MANY thanks for all that mine of useful information.

I managed to survive 52 years in the UK without being 'taken for a ride', and being a foreigner now has made me doubly aware of the need to obey 'different' rules.

...but it does make me angry to think that someone has seen us an an easy mark. Hopefully they will rethink and honour will be satisfied on both sides.

[frogblogger]

Excellent info from Matou. My reply to such con merchants, without going into the more coarse specifics, would be "pull the other one, it's got bells on", or "vous me prenez pour un Parisien?", or something similar. There is no way that something like this would fly, they are just trying it on. At the very worst the bon de commande was for the 'etude'.

I would only add that any firm asking me to pay for a quote would be told to take a running jump right from the outset. It is not in the least reasonable to ask for payment for a quote even if for central heating for 450m2. They stand to earn big money from a successful tender, and that's the gamble - getting their bid price right. I've a similar sized place, and got commitment free quotes from a dozen companies before settling on the cheapest 15 years ago.

[Matou]

minesthechevy, do not feel bad these "sale persons" definitely also play that fine game with the French. For exemple, it's a well know fact that certain telephone company use(d) to send rep(s) to someone's place to "inform" him/her of a product or to "assess" his/her services.
At one time or another there will be "just a little" document to sign (or even not) and, guess what, this or that old lady or trusting housewife will learn a few days later (most often before the end of the legal "délai de rétractation" ) that she has been "transferred" to Company X and "dégroupé" (i.e. opted out of France Télécom) without her consent...
Why should they bother? Statistically it's greatly profitable if you compare the small number of persons that will be "enduring" enough to get compensation from a Court and the huge number that will not bother or let it down...

[minesthechevy]

Pete, and Matou, thanks again.

I particularly like "vous me prenez pour un Parisien?"...... hope it's not copyright, coz I'm going to be using it a lot.

I know how 'english' their sales tactics can be - last summer, a small group of us were having a break on the patio and a van came hurtling down the drive. Two 'Bright Young Things' with logo'd shirts and clipboards piled out and asked if we had a fire suppression system. 'Yeah', I thought, 'gimme another beer and it'll be ready in 30 minutes'. However, I said no, I didn't, and they blustered that 'we must, we MUST'....

I said I didn't HAVE to do anything, and they calmed down a bit after that. As it happens, every room has a fire extinguisher in it, but talk about salesmanship.....

Anyway, I'm going to wait until I receive this letter from them, and my reply will be full of the excellent references from Matou, and also copied to his boss. I will probably point out that the way we felt pressured has contributed to the loss of their contract.......

[frogblogger]

Originally Posted by minesthechevy

...but it does make me angry to think that someone has seen us an an easy mark.

I'm past getting too worked up over this, it's not worth the energy. Discussing similar practices in Thailand, I mentioned a recent con attempt on me in France in this post. I eventually got the work done by a bona fide builder for 300 euros, a fraction of the quoted price.

Rogue traders are to be found everywhere practising their 'art' on the vulnerable, and expats (and Parisians) can be easy meat.

It does help to use local contacts to get sensible prices on your behalf. The trouble is that owners of substantial properties are not short of a few quid, or so the traders in your area insist on believing to justify their actions, and a 10-20% increase on the actual going rate is par for the course. Sometimes a lot more. It amazes me that people will fall for it, but they must do, else these guys would be out of a job.