"Socialized medicine" - threat or menace?

[frogblogger]

I've just been watching a documentary on Al Jazeera, open-mouthed, with film of some of the anti-Obama rallies on the healthcare issue, listening to the inanities shouted and daubed on placards, and as Bev mentioned, the nonsense being spouted about alleged 'socialised' healthcare in countries such as France. Holstered guns being paraded, self-proclaimed conservatives telling blatant and outrageous lies about the situation, Hitler moustaches painted onto photos of Obama...

Did I hear right... a 400-fold increase in presidential death threats since Obama came to power? Surely not!

Anyway - scary stuff. What does this conservative element of a so-called Christian nation expect the 47 million who have no cover to do - crawl away and die?

[Coton90]

Originally Posted by frogblogger

I've just been watching a documentary on Al Jazeera, open-mouthed, with film of some of the anti-Obama rallies on the healthcare issue, listening to the inanities shouted and daubed on placards, and as Bev mentioned, the nonsense being spouted about alleged 'socialised' healthcare in countries such as France. Holstered guns being paraded, self-proclaimed conservatives telling blatant and outrageous lies about the situation, Hitler moustaches painted onto photos of Obama...

Did I hear right... a 400-fold increase in presidential death threats since Obama came to power? Surely not!

Anyway - scary stuff. What does this conservative element of a so-called Christian nation expect the 47 million who have no cover to do - crawl away and die?

That's about right. In order to implement a universal health care system you need an acceptance of the concept of "social responsibility". This concept is unfortunately foreign to a many Americans. Many subscribe to the "I got mine, too bad you didn't get yours" philosophy. In all fairness, roughly half the population (Myself included), support universal healthcare coverage. The US is the only first world country without universal health care coverage. In addition ,there are numerous medically related bankruptcies in the States. The number in France, Germany, and all of the other European countries is zero.

As far as loonies, this is not a new phenomena. We have always had them through our relatively brief history. They seem to come out of the woodwork when hot issues come to the forefront. Luckily they are a frindge group and most of us consider them loonies. I'd be surprised if there were none in the UK, albeit not as well armed.

[frogblogger]

Plenty of loonies in the UK, although they usually stick to football hooliganism, or rallies demanding the right to ride around in silly clothes and shout "Tally Ho!", chasing foxes until a pack of hounds rips them to pieces.

The 'everyone for himself/herself', 'look after number one' philosophy is something Margaret Thatcher borrowed from her much-loved Ronnie Reagan, and unfortunately it got a hold in the UK. The country has been going downhill, morally speaking, ever since. It was one reason why I left the UK, the writing was on the wall - individual success not community values... financial products and insurance services, not manufacturing and agriculture.

The French are hanging on in there, but even they are beginning to succumb. So I headed for the Orient, where family and community values still mean something.

I don't think that the average US citizen (present company excepted of course ) quite understands why so much of the rest of the world views the American Dream with suspicion. But the question of priorities has a lot to do with it.

[Coton90]

I was born in 52 and was a teenager when the counter-culture was in vogue. I guess these ideals reached their peak in the late 60's. Those days there were feeling of connectivity with all humanity, consideration for your fellow human being, ecological responsibility, etc.

I noticed a change when I was going to college in the 70's, getting exposed to ideas from people like Maslow with the idea of self-actualization being the holy grail. I noticed numerous literature available with the focus being on the individual and less so on society as a whole.

We are at the stage in America where materialism is the preeminent religion, if you define relion as being a belief system. With this type of philosophy, it's no wonder universal healthcare coverage is such a hot button issue. I

I think America will still be viewed by many as the land of hope and opportunity, based of course on their perceptions. What better example than our current President, who started from humble beginnings to our nation's highest office?

[frogblogger]

Originally Posted by Coton90

I was born in 52 and was a teenager when the counter-culture was in vogue. I guess these ideals reached their peak in the late 60's. Those days there were feeling of connectivity with all humanity, consideration for your fellow human being, ecological responsibility, etc.

I noticed a change when I was going to college in the 70's, getting exposed to ideas from people like Maslow with the idea of self-actualization being the holy grail. I noticed numerous literature available with the focus being on the individual and less so on society as a whole.

We are at the stage in America where materialism is the preeminent religion, if you define relion as being a belief system. With this type of philosophy, it's no wonder universal healthcare coverage is such a hot button issue.

56, me. My experience parallels your own, except that the UK was running a decade or so behind the US in terms of the 'selfish' revolution. But the materialist ideal has taken a bit of a hammering, with recent events. Today middle-of-the-roaders in the UK and France are a bit directionless - which can be dangerous, the perfect breeding ground for more extremism...

Originally Posted by Coton90

I think America will still be viewed by many as the land of hope and opportunity, based of course on their perceptions. What better example than our current President, who started from humble beginnings to our nation's highest office?

My impression talking to people in Europe and SE Asia is that people have lost a certain amount of esteem for the US through the Bush era, and the recession/depression has accentuated some of the more negative views. I'm not sure that Obama will have the remedial effect you suggest quite so rapidly, Europeans tend to be a bit more sceptical

Sure plenty of those on the breadline will continue to see the developed nations as lands of hope and plenty - but what other choice do they have.

[Coton90]

Originally Posted by frogblogger

56, me. My experience parallels your own, except that the UK was running a decade or so behind the US in terms of the 'selfish' revolution. But the materialist ideal has taken a bit of a hammering, with recent events. Today middle-of-the-roaders in the UK and France are a bit directionless - which can be dangerous, the perfect breeding ground for more extremism...


My impression talking to people in Europe and SE Asia is that people have lost a certain amount of esteem for the US through the Bush era, and the recession/depression has accentuated some of the more negative views. I'm not sure that Obama will have the remedial effect you suggest quite so rapidly, Europeans tend to be a bit more sceptical

Sure plenty of those on the breadline will continue to see the developed nations as lands of hope and plenty - but what other choice do they have.

My perception is that foreigners are able to compartmentalize their views about America, i.e., they hate our politicians and foreign policy, don’t hate Americans per se (even in Iran) and love our culture (God knows why and fundamentalists excluded).

It may very well be that one day China or India may be seen as the land of opportunity, but I don’t see it in the near future.

People will always look for some permanency/stability in uncertain times. Here people look for extraterrestrials, UFOs, the Kabala or you name it. Throughout history, new religions flourished when the existing religion no longer met people’s needs.

[Bevdeforges]

Someone sent me this video. It's marvelously pertinent to the discussion:

You Tube

Enjoy!
Cheers,
Bev

[Coton90]

Originally Posted by Bevdeforges

Someone sent me this video. It's marvelously pertinent to the discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVgOl3cETb4

Enjoy!
Cheers,
Bev

Bravo, that was enjoyable. I think there is a growing consensus that we do have a real problem that we can no longer pretend doesn't exist and we have to deal with it. It's been a long time coming.

Schoenes Wochenende et Bon Weekend.

[Bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by Coton90

Bravo, that was enjoyable. I think there is a growing consensus that we do have a real problem that we can no longer pretend doesn't exist and we have to deal with it. It's been a long time coming.

Schoenes Wochenende et Bon Weekend.

The one thing that gives me faith in the good old US of A is that we will always be able to laugh at ourselves (even if through the tears).

"We're number 37!!!!!"

I can certainly quibble over some aspects of the French system - and in fact it's running up big debts, too. But the system isn't particularly wasteful, and if you get sick, you generally don't have to worry about going broke. The big issue we share here in France with the US is the uneven distribution of doctors and medical services. All the young docs coming out of school only want to practice in Paris.
Cheers,
Bev

[Coton90]

Originally Posted by Bevdeforges

The one thing that gives me faith in the good old US of A is that we will always be able to laugh at ourselves (even if through the tears).

"We're number 37!!!!!"

I can certainly quibble over some aspects of the French system - and in fact it's running up big debts, too. But the system isn't particularly wasteful, and if you get sick, you generally don't have to worry about going broke. The big issue we share here in France with the US is the uneven distribution of doctors and medical services. All the young docs coming out of school only want to practice in Paris.
Cheers,
Bev

Personally, I would prefer going to an experienced doctor than one just coming out of school. Hopefully the older doctors are keeping current with the latest treatments, as they are supposed to. I realize experience doesn't necessarily equate to competency.

Living in Germany for 20 years we always went to German doctors as opposed to using the U.S. facilities. One thing I liked about their system was their "Sprechstunde". If you were sick you just went to the doctor; there was never any need to make an appointment.

I don't expect there will be state of the art medical facilities close by to where we're locating but if push comes to shove, we'll drive 45 minutes to Montpellier.

Tchuss.